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iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

developer.apple.com

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Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#331

Post by donkyrf »

concinds wrote: post #241
MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

I can't wait until regulators do their job and take away Apple's dictatorial control, in all areas , and all these doom-and-gloom predictions on all these tangential issues end up proving ludicrous. What kind of control would Chrome have over the web? Adding APIs doesn't force the billions of websites to adopt them. So what if a website adds WebBluetooth? You don't want the web to have that anyway, and if you keep us…

So according to you, a company that has about 25% of the global smartphone market, should be _legally forbidden_ from creating a tightly integrated software/hardware bundle.

Whereas, a company that has 70% of the global browser market somehow would have no way to take advantage if they had an even larger share.

I wonder how our species would survive without the unique market analysis from one-of-a-kind minds like yours.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#332

Post by [deleted] »

leptons wrote: post #308
crazygringo wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I have to have a real iPhone to debug problems with Apple's implementations. Safari fucking sucks You'll still have to debug it. Even when other browsers are allowed, Safari isn't going away. "Safari fucking sucks" isn't an argument that Apple is being anticompetitive. There are a bunch of things that suck about Chrome too. And Firefox as well. No product is perfect.

Of course I have to debug it, but I develop for standards, not Apple's wonky implementations of touch events and lots of other things. So I should not need Apple hardware to debug a web browser. I can't install Safari on Android or any other platform, so if there's a bug that only shows up in Safari , then I have to buy Apple hardware . I'd rather not give Apple one goddamned cent of my money, they have already mistr…

[deleted]

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#333

Post by bangaladore »

dagmx wrote: post #330
bangaladore wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Use memory-safe programming languages, or features that improve memory safety within other languages, within the alternative web browser engine at a minimum for all code that processes web content; There is absolutely zero way to satisfy the latter part here. It's at best non-enforceable. If I'm using C++ and use std::span instead of a c-style array, is that good enough?

Why not? The wording is “features that improve memory safety” It doesn’t say that it needs to provide absolute memory safety. Based on the linked WebKit guidelines, it seems like they meet the criteria.

That's the commenter, not from the Apple page as far as I can tell.

My point is the requirement is too broad. It cannot be meaningfully enforced.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#334

Post by thingortwo »

pipeline_peak wrote: post #300
chongli wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have much faith in Firefox saving us, given its organizational turnover and cultural issues. I have much more faith in a new entrant, like Ladybird. I should be able to use Ladybird on iOS. Why not?

Ladybird has too much pride. They are more concerned with making something from scratch than something that actually works. Also they’re switching over to Swift which can only be worse for performance.

So what do you want another chromium based browser? The whole point of Ladybird is to kinda prove that a completely independent browser engine is feasible. Also, they are not doing everything from scratch for example it will use the same graphics library that chromium uses (Skia) and also now firefox. You should probably read the FAQ on their homepage:

https://ladybird.org/#:~:text=What%20does%20%22No%20code%20f...

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#335

Post by kelthuzad »

MBCook wrote: post #301
benoau wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but the solution to that is to be good at breaking monopolies , not allowing one to stop another.

That’s what should have happened long ago. As far as I can see there are only two possibilities on any kind of near term: Apple can lock Google and everyone else out, or Google can take over the web fully. Those appear to be our only choices right now. I don’t like either one. But I know which one I don’t like more.

[flagged]

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#336

Post by otterley »

leptons wrote: post #308
crazygringo wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I have to have a real iPhone to debug problems with Apple's implementations. Safari fucking sucks You'll still have to debug it. Even when other browsers are allowed, Safari isn't going away. "Safari fucking sucks" isn't an argument that Apple is being anticompetitive. There are a bunch of things that suck about Chrome too. And Firefox as well. No product is perfect.

Of course I have to debug it, but I develop for standards, not Apple's wonky implementations of touch events and lots of other things. So I should not need Apple hardware to debug a web browser. I can't install Safari on Android or any other platform, so if there's a bug that only shows up in Safari , then I have to buy Apple hardware . I'd rather not give Apple one goddamned cent of my money, they have already mistr…

> I'm sorry iPhone users, but you'll forever be second class citizens in my product sphere

I can’t help but wonder if your company’s leadership shares your level of disdain for your customers.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#337

Post by pdyc »

MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

problem is apple also handicaps safari so web apps cannot compete with its apps ecosystem like deleting storage if you dont use it for a week or so in the name of security. It makes sense if there is storage pressure but if app is used rarely than you cannot have first class local experience you are forced to rely on server.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#338

Post by pipeline_peak »

thingortwo wrote: post #334
pipeline_peak wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ladybird has too much pride. They are more concerned with making something from scratch than something that actually works. Also they’re switching over to Swift which can only be worse for performance.

So what do you want another chromium based browser? The whole point of Ladybird is to kinda prove that a completely independent browser engine is feasible. Also, they are not doing everything from scratch for example it will use the same graphics library that chromium uses (Skia) and also now firefox. You should probably read the FAQ on their homepage: https://ladybird.org/#:~:text=What%20does%20%22No%20code%20f...

> So what do you want another chromium based browser?

I want something free of Google code, which sounds like they aren’t doing if Skia is anyway involved.

Instead they’re wasting resources where it’s less needed. Like building a JS engine instead of starting off with something like SpiderMonkey, JSCore, or QuickJS.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#339

Post by dagmx »

bangaladore wrote: post #333
dagmx wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? The wording is “features that improve memory safety” It doesn’t say that it needs to provide absolute memory safety. Based on the linked WebKit guidelines, it seems like they meet the criteria.

That's the commenter, not from the Apple page as far as I can tell. My point is the requirement is too broad. It cannot be meaningfully enforced.

It’s literally from their requirements page

https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engi...

You have to request explicit permission to be able to be a browser on iOS. You can’t just ship an app. I assume part of that process is that you specifically demonstrate that you try your best to use best safety practices.

Again, it’s also not absolute safety. It’s just due diligence review.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#340

Post by eklavya »

MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

Pretty damning evaluation of apple's capabilities to be sure that they won't be able to compete on merit! I don't believe that. So much apple software is absolutely loved.
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