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iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

developer.apple.com

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Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#301

Post by MBCook »

benoau wrote: post #236
MBCook wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the default on the Mac and it’s nowhere near the most popular there. Google pushes Chrome HARD.

Yeah but the solution to that is to be good at breaking monopolies , not allowing one to stop another.

That’s what should have happened long ago.

As far as I can see there are only two possibilities on any kind of near term:

Apple can lock Google and everyone else out, or Google can take over the web fully.

Those appear to be our only choices right now. I don’t like either one. But I know which one I don’t like more.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#302

Post by MBCook »

s3p wrote: post #294
torben-friis wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see that as a threat honestly. safari being the default app pretty much guarantees its place unless google comes up with a killer feature for iOS chrome. And they are unlikely to make that push considering apple demands the app to be distributed only in Japan. Besides, the mobile web is becoming more and more of a niche platform, since the web is becoming centralised as time passes and most main sites redirec…

Until websites block you from logging in, completing transactions, ordering items until you open it with Chrome

Or just get buggy. I have absolutely run into sites that work on mobile Safari but not on desktop Safari. Because they don’t test it and don’t care.

You HAVE to use Chrome or possibly Firefox. We’ve always seen what Firefox is doing, they’re not going to be our saviors again.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#303

Post by MBCook »

concinds wrote: post #245
lokar wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how? Poor standards implementation? Performance? UX?

I cannot go through a day without "this tab has been reloaded due to a problem" on Safari iOS and any other browser. It's been happening for years, across phones. It's dogshit. Safari Mac is fine. Even if that's an edge case, it's why having only one engine is pathological. Maybe Safari iOS works fine for you. Not for me. I don't want rationalization on why it's not Apple's fault, or somehow not Safari's fault, or "t…

It’s INCREDIBLY rare I see that. Phone or desktop, lots of surfing, all day long, for two decades.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#304

Post by MBCook »

s3p wrote: post #295
hparadiz wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox exists.

And its userbase is essentially just HN users unfortunately

And it’s trying to get them to run away as fast as possible.

Firefox is not going to save us again. It’s arguably part of the problem in a different way.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#305

Post by MBCook »

brokencode wrote: post #203
anticensor wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they themselves use them?

Also because they know what happened to Microsoft when they did that with IE.

Microsoft didn’t control the number one search engine, the number one email client, the number one video site, probably the number one online office suite, the number one smartphone platform…

It was possible to rip people away from Microsoft. That may not be something we can do this time with Chrome.

Try telling someone that moving off of Chrome may mean moving off of every single Google property because Chrome is the only browser they work on by then.

See how easy an argument that is. It’s right up with there with “stop helping capitalism and move to the woods“.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#306

Post by MBCook »

kmeisthax wrote: post #255
MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

While this excuse works today , we should not forget that this policy also meant disinviting Mozilla from the mobile browser party about a decade ago. I'd argue a good chunk of Mozilla's downfall was them chasing the pipe dream of Boot2Gecko, and that was specifically because they couldn't ship Gecko on iOS. The reason why we have a Chrome/Safari hegemony is because Apple insisted on everything being Safari on their…

I would argue that the root of the problem is that Google was not broken up.

I don’t think one company should own all the stuff that Google does. It gives them way too many perverse incentives over the web.

I’m not saying it’s smart we got here. I’m not saying it’s good we got here. I’m not saying we should be here.

All I’m saying is we ARE here. And given that (effective screw up) I fear this will make things drastically worse.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#307

Post by windexh8er »

MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

[flagged]

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#308

Post by leptons »

crazygringo wrote: post #225
leptons wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I included that link not as "research" but as proof that I am not the only one calling Safari "the new IE". It's been written about ad nauseum, and just because you think a google search is pointless doesn't mean my argument lacks merit - and if you were to do your own "research", I'd bet you would start with a google search. Thousands of people have written about it, so go see what they have to say, I am not the onl…

> So I have to have a real iPhone to debug problems with Apple's implementations. Safari fucking sucks You'll still have to debug it. Even when other browsers are allowed, Safari isn't going away. "Safari fucking sucks" isn't an argument that Apple is being anticompetitive. There are a bunch of things that suck about Chrome too. And Firefox as well. No product is perfect.

Of course I have to debug it, but I develop for standards, not Apple's wonky implementations of touch events and lots of other things. So I should not need Apple hardware to debug a web browser. I can't install Safari on Android or any other platform, so if there's a bug that only shows up in Safari, then I have to buy Apple hardware. I'd rather not give Apple one goddamned cent of my money, they have already mistreated us - we actually sued them in a class action lawsuit and won (2011 MBP). So no, I do not want to pay for an overpriced phone just to fix their stupid proprietary bugs. Everything works great on Chrome and Firefox and Opera and a bunch of other mobile browsers.

>There are a bunch of things that suck about Chrome too. And Firefox as well. No product is perfect.

Google doesn't prevent Apple from offering Safari for Android, Apple just wouldn't be able to make money offering it through Google's app store the same way they can extort iOS developers that sell anything through the native app.

"Chrome sucks too" is very subjective. I've never had a problem with it. I'm curious what you think sucks about Chrome. Firefox - well, I used to use it a while ago, but not so much anymore. I will fix bugs there and they are easy and free to fix. I can't say the same about Apple's Safari.

Apple used to make Safari for Windows, but it sucked so badly, and they figured they couldn't make any money from it, so they discontinued it. So they could definitely make Safari for other platforms, but they would rather force developers to buy an iPhone instead. Fuck that.

I'm sorry iPhone users, but you'll forever be second class citizens in my product sphere, and you can blame Apple for that, until they allow other browser engines.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#309

Post by leptons »

otterley wrote: post #182
leptons wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> people will figure that out and adapt for themselves >No they won't. People on HN will. Not the average person. Yes they will, Apple has made it very easy to see. To check iOS app power usage, go to Settings > Battery, where you'll see a breakdown of battery consumption by app for the last 24 hours or 10 days, showing usage time and background activity, allowing you to identify power-hungry apps and manage setting…

Apple made it very clear that their security concerns related to third party browsing engines are about difficult-to-contain threats posed by JIT compilation. (JITs require non-text memory pages to be executable.) Apple doesn’t allow other apps to use such technology, so they’re consistent in that respect. Apple even disables JIT for Safari itself when you put an iPhone in lockdown mode, at no small cost to performan…

>Do you have a rebuttal to that?

People should be allowed to run the software they want on a device they paid a lot of money to own. Period.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#310

Post by leptons »

otterley wrote: post #182
leptons wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> people will figure that out and adapt for themselves >No they won't. People on HN will. Not the average person. Yes they will, Apple has made it very easy to see. To check iOS app power usage, go to Settings > Battery, where you'll see a breakdown of battery consumption by app for the last 24 hours or 10 days, showing usage time and background activity, allowing you to identify power-hungry apps and manage setting…

Apple made it very clear that their security concerns related to third party browsing engines are about difficult-to-contain threats posed by JIT compilation. (JITs require non-text memory pages to be executable.) Apple doesn’t allow other apps to use such technology, so they’re consistent in that respect. Apple even disables JIT for Safari itself when you put an iPhone in lockdown mode, at no small cost to performan…

That's just their excuse. Javascript is used on practically every web browser in existence, across billions of devices, and it does not have the security risks that Apple claims. It just doesn't. There are plenty of other flaws in their own web browser that have allowed remote code execution, but Javascript isn't typically one of them, in any browser, in any platform, in the last decade or more.

And there are plenty of apps in Apple's app store that are malicious. So the JIT excuse is just Applespeak for "we control what our competitors can do on hardware we supplied that someone bought and paid for". It's abuse and they are being sued by the DOJ. Just read the lawsuit so I don't have to reply to any more of your comments:

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

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