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iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

developer.apple.com

231–240 of 431 posts

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#231
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Funny how you agree that Firefox opposes these non-standards, and how Google rushes things. And immediately turn around and basically say "no-no-no, Apple is to blame and Safari (and, by extension Firefox) must absolutely implement these non-standard features from Chrome". There is nothing "funny" about me acknowledging facts, that's what a reasonable person should always do, try it. What's not funny though, is how…

> Apple's conflict of interest is motivating them to reject entire feature sets for competing technology instead of helping to implement a safe standard It literally is "everyone must immediately implement anything Chrome shits out". You don't even accept the fact that both Safari and Firefox team reject the entire premise on the same grounds . Nope. "They must work on better standards for these features that Chrome…

>It literally is "everyone must immediately implement anything Chrome shits out". You don't even accept the fact that both Safari and Firefox team reject the entire premise on the same grounds.

It isn't factually and certainly not "literally" that. I've explicitly stated that the problem isn't the rejection of the specific implementation in its current form, but the wholesale refusal of features to deny rival technology equal rights, instead of helping to implement a safe standard. That is evidence of Apple's bad faith motivation to hobble competing technology in favor of their App Store tax funnel. You consistently refuse to understand this and resort to deflecting from and distorting that fact.

>There's no broader argument.

There is, it's the one you've been deflecting and distracting from, because it refutes your biased talking points completely.

>You literally dismiss Firefox as irrelevant [1][1] Their position on these Chrome features is literally the same as Apple's https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/

No I don't. You're literally making stuff up and ignoring the fact that I have actually even started my response with an acknowledgement of that point: "You're right that Firefox also opposes some of these specific implementations in its current form, and that Google often rushes features. However, that doesn't diminish Apple's conflict of interest at all, so sometimes their arguments happen to align with reality just as a broken clock is correct twice a day." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46457938

>and assumes that Apple is both a bad actor driven entirely by money an must implement whatever Chrome comes up with

There is no such assumption, only the fact that Apple has a conflict of interest, which manifests itself in anti-competitive behavior, for which I've provided documented evidence. I've also never stated that they "must implement whatever Chrome comes up with", that's a gross misrepresentation, which you are stubbornly repeating, despite me having refuted it several times now. Your bias in this matter couldn't be more obvious, due to your dedication to distorting any evidence that refutes Apple's propaganda narrative, so you keep blindly repeating the same tired and old talking points despite evidence to the contrary.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#232
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> people will figure that out and adapt for themselves >No they won't. People on HN will. Not the average person. Yes they will, Apple has made it very easy to see. To check iOS app power usage, go to Settings > Battery, where you'll see a breakdown of battery consumption by app for the last 24 hours or 10 days, showing usage time and background activity, allowing you to identify power-hungry apps and manage setting…

Apple made it very clear that their security concerns related to third party browsing engines are about difficult-to-contain threats posed by JIT compilation. (JITs require non-text memory pages to be executable.) Apple doesn’t allow other apps to use such technology, so they’re consistent in that respect. Apple even disables JIT for Safari itself when you put an iPhone in lockdown mode, at no small cost to performan…

Yes. Safari is a less secure browser than Chrome, architecturally. Took far longer to ship sandboxing. Still hasn't fixed SLAP and FLOP. Still hasn't shipped proper site isolation. Takes far longer to fix reported vulnerabilities, and consistently "fixes" them superficially and incorrectly, requiring another fix.

Enough with the Apple fanboy paternalism. They don't need absolute control "for users' sake". They're not entitled to it.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#233
post #199
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari is so bad, I want a real chrome experience on iOS

Can you explain how? Poor standards implementation? Performance? UX?

No full screen API so impossible to make lots of types of game experiences.

No orientation API so impossible to make games and other experiences that require a certain orientation

No WebXR (though Apple will allow it on Vision Pro)

No support for ResizeObvserver devicePixelContentBoxSize so impossible to get correct rendering reguardless of user's zoom level.

No simple PWA installation. Requires an obscure incantation that only expert users know.

That's just a few off the top of my head.

Yes, I know all the comments will be about how they don't want those features. That's really irrelevant. Allow them to be turned off. Require permissions. Those features have been shipping on other OSes, Desktop and Mobile for > 5 years and the world hasn't ended.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many browsers on the App Store but they all have to use one of two browser engines bundled with iOS.

No you don't get me but all browsers in Iphone even firefox and chrome are webkit forks and neither of them allow any sort of extensions on top Orion is the only one I think which still supports firefox or chrome extensions as well. I am sure that it can support PWA or already does, not sure, someone should probably test it out. Theoretically if you can modify the engine enough to run firefox/chrome extensions on it…

I don't think you get how it works. When you download a browser on iOS it does not have an engine _at all_, not even a "WebKit fork". The browser is just a UI and wrapper for one of the engines bundles in iOS. No modifications can be done to the engine whatsoever, it is part of the OS.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#235
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see that as a threat honestly. safari being the default app pretty much guarantees its place unless google comes up with a killer feature for iOS chrome. And they are unlikely to make that push considering apple demands the app to be distributed only in Japan. Besides, the mobile web is becoming more and more of a niche platform, since the web is becoming centralised as time passes and most main sites redirec…

It was the default on the Mac and it’s nowhere near the most popular there. Google pushes Chrome HARD.

Yeah it's fun how Google displays a full-page ad for Chrome every few times I do a Google search on iOS Safari that I have to dismiss before seeing the results.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#236
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see that as a threat honestly. safari being the default app pretty much guarantees its place unless google comes up with a killer feature for iOS chrome. And they are unlikely to make that push considering apple demands the app to be distributed only in Japan. Besides, the mobile web is becoming more and more of a niche platform, since the web is becoming centralised as time passes and most main sites redirec…

It was the default on the Mac and it’s nowhere near the most popular there. Google pushes Chrome HARD.

Yeah but the solution to that is to be good at breaking monopolies, not allowing one to stop another.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#237
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely is reality. Safari is the worst browser by far , it's been compared to Microsoft's old Internet Explorer browser. But don't take my word for it, lots of people have written about it... https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+new+ie And Apple purposely will never implement lots of APIs that only their native apps allow (which other browsers implement), specifically to force many developers to creat…

You seriously just link to a google search of people who agree with you?? Solid investigation. Hard disagree on safari being even in the same ballpark as IE; what’s your alternative, Google owns the entirety of the browser space?

I don’t really agree with allowing one monopolistic company to behave anticompetitively because we’re scared of their only competitor, another monopolist. They’re both menaces to consumer rights.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#238
post #191

Apple appear to be using the same rules that they made up when "allowing" third party browser engines in the EU. It's worth pointing out that these restrictions are such, that to best of my knowledge, no one has shipped a browser with an alternate engine in the EU app stores yet despite being permitted to for over a year now. The demand that the application with its alternate browser engine must be a completely new a…

Another hurdle in the EU is the browser app developers must be in the EU too.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#239
post #199
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari is so bad, I want a real chrome experience on iOS

Can you explain how? Poor standards implementation? Performance? UX?

I hear this a lot, but have used Safari as my since it was launch in 2003.Performance has always been great. UI has always been minimalist, out of the way, and has never upsold me on anything. There are times where it lags and times where it leads standards. There may be a a site every now and then that doesn’t work, but iOS makes that less likely. The only thing I can ever think of is that it’s not or doesn’t have .

That said, the only plugins I use are ad blockers, so maybe I’m missing something.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari is the modern IE. the fact that PWAs didn’t take off in the last decade js purely due to Safari. The only reason Apple has banned alternative engines and continues to hold back on major web technologies is anticompetitive behaviour.

No, I think Chrome is the modern IE. It has huge market share, to the point where developers often just ignore the other browsers or at best treat them as P2. Just like they did when IE was dominant. I'm torn on this honestly. Safari (particularly mobile Safari) is literally the only thing keeping the web from becoming Chrome-only. While I would love to see Safari-alternative engines on the iPhone, I fear that the "o…

Chrome is the IE in that it’s all the web devs target or test and the browser that every enterprise just uses as the assumed target. Safari is the late-stage IE that doesn’t add any features or modern standards that its (supposed) competitors add. Although Apple seems to have different and more strategic reasons than MS did. Apple just hates the Web because they can’t effectively tollbooth it, whereas I think MS just didn’t care about investing in IE after 2001 or so.
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