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iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

developer.apple.com

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Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#131

Post by givinguflac »

leptons wrote: post #80
crazygringo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to put a stranglehold on innovations on the web I think that's the hypothetical part, it's not reality. Safari continues to be a fully modern browser. It doesn't release new features quite as fast as Chrome, but it does generally adopt them. If Apple were attempting to put a "stranglehold on innovations on the web", Safari's feature set would look very different. But that's not what's happening. Like I said, Apple…

It absolutely is reality. Safari is the worst browser by far , it's been compared to Microsoft's old Internet Explorer browser. But don't take my word for it, lots of people have written about it... https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+new+ie And Apple purposely will never implement lots of APIs that only their native apps allow (which other browsers implement), specifically to force many developers to creat…

You seriously just link to a google search of people who agree with you?? Solid investigation. Hard disagree on safari being even in the same ballpark as IE; what’s your alternative, Google owns the entirety of the browser space?

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#132

Post by givinguflac »

greiskul wrote: post #120
otterley wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anybody that thinks otherwise is hopeless naive This is inappropriate. People can reasonably disagree without being insulting to each other. If you have concrete evidence that Apple is deliberately withholding some essential advancement in Safari or its support for Web standards so that it can sell more apps, by all means, cite it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+new+ie Just read the summary that Gemini provides for a good quick understanding, and follow up the multiple articles about it. Then please don't come back and say that there is nothing concrete about this evidence, that is just people speculating about a behavior that Apple has been engaging repeatedly and continuously for over a decade.

Seriously, you expect people to click a Google search link for people who agree with you- and then read what the LLM has to say?? When did HN become a garbage dump where people don’t do their own research and/or thinking?

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#133

Post by kelthuzad »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #110
bloppe wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a browser is essentially an app store with no 30% cut for Apple. If you can ship a browser, you don't need to pay the Apple tax

Has PWA become popular on unencumbered platforms like Android or Windows? No. Even if unencumbered on iOS, it will still fail, because PWA is an intrinsically confusing technology. The pitch to non-technical users is terrible. Just like passkeys, which has also been terrible.

>Has PWA become popular on unencumbered platforms like Android or Windows? No.

Obviously. When a major Gatekeeper systematically holds it back to prevent it from challenging its taxation funnel, then it has no chance of competing and will thus not be chosen on competing platforms either, which will prevent its adoption and any investment in it.

>Even if unencumbered on iOS, it will still fail, because PWA is an intrinsically confusing technology.

PWA is not an "intrinsically confusing technology" and making such an absurd statement without proper elaboration reeks of pure bias.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#134

Post by otterley »

greiskul wrote: post #120
otterley wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anybody that thinks otherwise is hopeless naive This is inappropriate. People can reasonably disagree without being insulting to each other. If you have concrete evidence that Apple is deliberately withholding some essential advancement in Safari or its support for Web standards so that it can sell more apps, by all means, cite it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+new+ie Just read the summary that Gemini provides for a good quick understanding, and follow up the multiple articles about it. Then please don't come back and say that there is nothing concrete about this evidence, that is just people speculating about a behavior that Apple has been engaging repeatedly and continuously for over a decade.

It is you that needs to cite the evidence, not some LLM, and with hard facts coupled with evidence of intent, not just referring to mere opinions.

You claim to know something with certainty, so one can reasonably expect you have the expertise and data to prove it. If you come to the kitchen claiming to be a chef, you’d better come with sharp knives, not photos of them.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#135

Post by SheinhardtWigCo »

valleyer wrote: post #129
overfeed wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's only a matter of time until it becomes too confusing and problematic to try and run the same system relatively openly in one country and walled in another They will continue to do so for as long as it remains profitable. Navigating the complexities of multiple jurisdictions is the bread and butter of MNCs - it's the price of admission into the multinational club. Apple is guaranteed to have lawyers, admins, an…

Lawyers, admins, and executives, sure. But what about the complexity on the engineers who now have to maintain an exploding matrix of modes? I can definitely see that becoming burdensome.

$500k+ TC makes many burdens worth shouldering

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#136

Post by ChadNauseam »

leptons wrote: post #80
crazygringo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to put a stranglehold on innovations on the web I think that's the hypothetical part, it's not reality. Safari continues to be a fully modern browser. It doesn't release new features quite as fast as Chrome, but it does generally adopt them. If Apple were attempting to put a "stranglehold on innovations on the web", Safari's feature set would look very different. But that's not what's happening. Like I said, Apple…

It absolutely is reality. Safari is the worst browser by far , it's been compared to Microsoft's old Internet Explorer browser. But don't take my word for it, lots of people have written about it... https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+new+ie And Apple purposely will never implement lots of APIs that only their native apps allow (which other browsers implement), specifically to force many developers to creat…

I suspect it might have been motivated by antitrust concerns, but safari is really not that bad. Check out Interop 2025: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2025

They generally are pretty caught up on features. They have webgpu, they support the web notifications API (once a PWA is installed), lots of stuff. My main gripe is that they make it too hard to install PWAs, but we're still waiting for an actual API for that. (Maybe in 2027? [0])

> And Apple purposely will never implement lots of APIs that only their native apps allow (which other browsers implement)

Can you give an example?

[0]: https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2025/11/24/the-web-insta...

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#137

Post by koolala »

otterley wrote: post #76
leptons wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason Apple doesn't allow any other browser engines on iOS is due to them collecting up to 30% of purchases made through the apps from the app store. If a developer can do the same things with a capable web browser, then they won't need to create a native iOS app and that cuts into Apple's app revenue. So Apple purposely hobbles Safari so it doesn't have any advanced browser APIs for stuff like bluetooth or othe…

What evidence do you have, other than speculation, that Apple is so motivated? What standard features are missing from Safari’s rendering engine that makes it a less capable browser such that developers are forced to produce apps instead?

WebXR hasn't been supported for 10 years so they control their own AR market.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#138

Post by kelthuzad »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #108
bloppe wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hobbling browser engines is a key pillar of app store control. Decent PWA support would be a massive blow to Apple's bottom line.

This is the conspiratorial version. The more likely explanation is that when every app can bundle their own browser engine, we will not see a competition explosion. Instead, Electron apps will come to mobile, with every app shipping its own browser stack. You can’t tell me Gecko, which has already failed on desktop, will suddenly be popular on mobile. You can easily tell me every app shipping their own Chromium would…

>This is the conspiratorial version.

Everything that's inconvenient for your preferred narrative can just be dismissed as conspiratorial thinking, makes the world so much easier - doesnt it? I've compiled some of the evidences that makes clear how one of the Gatekeepers (Apple) has a tremendous conflict of interest, which manifested itself in systematic sabotaging of PWAs over the years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45534316

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#139

Post by otterley »

givinguflac wrote: post #132
greiskul wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+new+ie Just read the summary that Gemini provides for a good quick understanding, and follow up the multiple articles about it. Then please don't come back and say that there is nothing concrete about this evidence, that is just people speculating about a behavior that Apple has been engaging repeatedly and continuously for over a decade.

Seriously, you expect people to click a Google search link for people who agree with you- and then read what the LLM has to say?? When did HN become a garbage dump where people don’t do their own research and/or thinking?

About 10 years ago, by my reckoning. The less people know about a subject, the more strongly opinionated and certain they are about it. It’s not just HN, though; it’s a very human condition.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#140

Post by ryandrake »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #127
ryandrake wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, unfortunately with software, using enough granular feature flags, they can make their software "maximally bad" for each given region. They lose a battle in the EU and are forced to make the software better? They will make it better only in the EU. Lose another one in Japan over a different issue? Just make a "japan" flag and only make it narrowly better for that use case in that region. Lose further battles in o…

Even in a hardware level, this is easily obtainable, and Apple already does it. Chinese iPhones? They have 2 physical SIM card slots and no eSIM. EU iPhones? 1 SIM card slot, and 1 eSIM. US iPhones? 2 eSIM card slots and no physical SIM. US iPhones also have mmWave when other countries do not. If Apple wanted to, keeping a Lightning US iPhone was easily on the cards. The EU’s role in forcing the issue in the US is ex…

You make an excellent point. I would guess that it is orders of magnitude more expensive for Apple to create a new hardware configuration than it is for them to add software feature flags, though. But, assuming the cost of making the hardware change worldwide exceeds the cost of reconfiguring their factories for new hardware, you're right that they would not choose to make the hardware change worldwide.

Almost certainly someone (or an entire team) carefully crunched the numbers and deliberately decided not to keep a Lightning US iPhone.

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