iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan • Hacker News Board

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#191

Post by giobox » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:18 PM UTC

Apple appear to be using the same rules that they made up when "allowing" third party browser engines in the EU. It's worth pointing out that these restrictions are such, that to best of my knowledge, no one has shipped a browser with an alternate engine in the EU app stores yet despite being permitted to for over a year now.

The demand that the application with its alternate browser engine must be a completely new and separate binary from any app already using the built in browser makes it hard for existing big players like Chrome - they would have to manage two apps on the store during any transition to their own engine, which supposedly has been one of the biggest stumbling blocks for them already in the EU.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#192

Post by cosmic_cheese » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:19 PM UTC

Tagbert wrote: post #90

toast0 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If browser F is worse at battery life than browser S, people will figure that out and adapt for themselves. If it's a big difference, it's self-evident; and small differences should show up in the battery life tool and computer press. Security-wise, the sandbox should limit damage to within the browser, and if it doesn't that's not the browser's fault. Maybe restrict access to password filling and such though / figur…

Safari has long been better for battery than Chrome but people still install Chrome on their MacBooks.

Yep. Chrome's mindshare and momentum is incredibly difficult to overcome, and outside of technology-oriented circles users generally don't develop associations between specific programs and poor battery life unless it gets the fans blaring like you're running Cyberpunk 2077 with setting cranked to max or something.

It's similar to how the overwhelming majority of people driving cars aren't going to make note of the difference in driving dynamics between CVT and automatic transmissions unless one severely underperforms compared to the other. It either runs or it doesn't and that's where the distinction ends for people who treat their car/computer/phone as an appliance.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#193

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:21 PM UTC

wolvoleo wrote: post #151

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the conspiratorial version. The more likely explanation is that when every app can bundle their own browser engine, we will not see a competition explosion. Instead, Electron apps will come to mobile, with every app shipping its own browser stack. You can’t tell me Gecko, which has already failed on desktop, will suddenly be popular on mobile. You can easily tell me every app shipping their own Chromium would…

Firefox is really good now on android. It's my go to browser now for everything. It just needed full addon support but when that was finally there it was great.

[deleted]

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#194

Post by dcdc123 » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:21 PM UTC

Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #156

steelbrain wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While its not Firefox, you can run uBlock origin with the Orion browser from the Kagi people.

Okay now that we have come to the topic, How is Orion browser on App store whereas all others aren't? is there a way to make more innovation in this area and maybe an extension or two developed adding more perms etc or forking Orion or the know-how behind it and replicating it could finally allow PWA on apple iphones?

There are many browsers on the App Store but they all have to use one of two browser engines bundled with iOS.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#195

Post by xp84 » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:22 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #108

bloppe wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hobbling browser engines is a key pillar of app store control. Decent PWA support would be a massive blow to Apple's bottom line.

This is the conspiratorial version. The more likely explanation is that when every app can bundle their own browser engine, we will not see a competition explosion. Instead, Electron apps will come to mobile, with every app shipping its own browser stack. You can’t tell me Gecko, which has already failed on desktop, will suddenly be popular on mobile. You can easily tell me every app shipping their own Chromium would…

This is true, however I think an App Store rule that to ship a browser engine, you have to be a browser, defined as having a browser that is maintained on MacOS, Linux, and/or Windows and which can be made the default browser on those platforms. Or even simpler, it has to present web browsing to the user as the primary function and not secondary to accessing content/shopping/gaming.

Seems either approach would rule out your Slack, Amazon app, etc. from shipping their own outdated 900MB Chromiums but allow Chrome, Firefox, K-Meleon, whatever.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#196

Post by gyomu » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:22 PM UTC

OptionOfT wrote: post #71

rorylawless wrote: post #33

My hope for laws such as the ones Japan and the EU enacted was that companies would see the writing on the wall and change their practices worldwide, if only for cost reasons (it presumably being more expensive to maintain multiple sets of rules.) However, these companies are now so large that they can choose to absorb any inefficiencies on a country-by-country basis.

At a hardware level it seemed to work. Looking at USB-C on iPhones for example. Software wise? Fail. EEA gets to disable start search in Windows 11. RoW does not. Interestingly EEA membership is decided at install time based on your selection, and is not changeable afterwards. iPhones on the other hand have a daemon running that checks your location. It's not based on where you set up the phone. So traveling from Eur…

1) Apple loves USB-C, they helped invent it and were one of the first to ship a USB-C only laptop

2) Apple committed to 10 years of lightning support to weather the backlash from dropping 30-pin

USB-C on iPhone was going to happen regardless of the EU.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#197

Post by baby » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:22 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

Safari is so bad, I want a real chrome experience on iOS

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#198

Post by xp84 » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:25 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #110

bloppe wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a browser is essentially an app store with no 30% cut for Apple. If you can ship a browser, you don't need to pay the Apple tax

Has PWA become popular on unencumbered platforms like Android or Windows? No. Even if unencumbered on iOS, it will still fail, because PWA is an intrinsically confusing technology. The pitch to non-technical users is terrible. Just like passkeys, which has also been terrible.

It’s not that confusing. To a user it could be the same as an app, just one you can be prompted to “install” instantly without a download and without wasting space on your device.

If Apple weren’t incentivized to block PWA use, they’d allow them to be “installed” with the same type of little top banner that prompts you to get/open an App Store app. Instead they relegate it to some obscure buried option inside the Safari Share menu.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#199

Post by lokar » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:27 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #197

MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

Safari is so bad, I want a real chrome experience on iOS

Can you explain how? Poor standards implementation? Performance? UX?

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#200

Post by kelthuzad » Thu, Jan 01, 2026, 9:27 PM UTC

troupo wrote: post #190

kelthuzad wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that Firefox also opposes some of these specific implementations in its current form, and that Google often rushes features. However, that doesn't diminish Apple's conflict of interest at all, so sometimes their arguments happen to align with reality just as a broken clock is correct twice a day. Apple applies many double standards e.g. they allow native apps to access these hardware features (where they…

> You're right that Firefox also opposes some of these specific implementations in its current form, and that Google often rushes features. However, that doesn't diminish Apple's conflict of interest at all Funny how you agree that Firefox opposes these non-standards, and how Google rushes things. And immediately turn around and basically say "no-no-no, Apple is to blame and Safari (and, by extension Firefox) must ab…

>Funny how you agree that Firefox opposes these non-standards, and how Google rushes things. And immediately turn around and basically say "no-no-no, Apple is to blame and Safari (and, by extension Firefox) must absolutely implement these non-standard features from Chrome".

There is nothing "funny" about me acknowledging facts, that's what a reasonable person should always do, try it. What's not funny though, is how you're butchering and misrepresenting my arguments to such a gross degree. I've never stated that everybody "must implement these non-standard features from Chrome", instead I've made a much more nuanced argument about how Apple's conflict of interest is motivating them to reject entire feature sets for competing technology instead of helping to implement a safe standard, which is indicative of their bad faith motivations. That anti-competitive strategy has been essential for Apple in collecting billions in app taxes by systematically hobbling any competition before it can emerge.

>BTW literally the moment Firefox relented and implemented WebMIDI they had originally opposed, they immediately ran into tracking/fingerprinting attempts using WebMIDI that Chrome just couldn't care less about.

So? Just as native apps give users certain freedoms that can have problematic aspects, web apps should have _equal rights_ and be able to play on a level playing field. The choice and freedom should be the users' and not that of Apple's finance division. None of this gives Apple the right to uphold its anti-competitive strategy with its corporate double speak. And the fact that you're so hyperfocused on specifics while failing to grasp the broader argument, so you can cheerlead for Apple's anti-competitive behavior, is revealing a clear bias.