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On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

laurasanders.net

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Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#111

Post by btilly »

papsosouid wrote: post #73
shawnee_ wrote: post #45

Faruk Ateş' at least got this part right: The tone of our debates – which often get quite heated – is frequently different based on the gender of the author(s). Sanders' article seems a little more rant-y than it should be for someone who is basing her experiences "in the industry" (UK) since April 2012. Not that a relatively small amount of experience means you can't have an opinion, but it can't be good to become t…

>Given a little bit of time, perhaps she will see that some sexism-based discrimination does exist Did you skip the "reading the article" part? She made it quite clear that she has experienced sexism before, just not yet in the web industry. She didn't say sexism doesn't exist, just that it doesn't seem to be a web/it problem. >It is a cold, hard fact: women make less than men. No, it isn't. The wage gap myth is just…

You state yourself very confidently. Care to back it up with citations?

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp... many studies have found that there is a persistent gap that remains, even when you control for education level, hours worked, experience, etc.

It is unclear whose fault this gap is. For instance when people get a job offer, men are more likely to try to negotiate than women. That fact can cause significant wage discrimination at a company that is not trying to discriminate at all.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#112

Post by zachinglis »

rada wrote: post #99

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a…

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll."

It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such.

Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I know many Googler's, Appler's who spend a lot of time writing minor code for example.

But how does working for Apple and writing Modenizr qualify him to speak about sexism? That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed)

I think it doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes. It says volumes that people agree with her more. I'm sorry it doesn't fit in your belief box, but that doesn't make it trolling, nor does it make it wrong.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#113

Post by jenandre »

zachinglis wrote: post #76
jenandre wrote: post #50

Ehh... Yeah. The original article was kind of a pile of crap, but it's hard to give this any credibility either. 1) She's only worked for 6 months 2) She works in UX, which is actually pretty well represented by women. My two cents from a woman who actually works in a technical position (I'm a developer) for > 10 years now. Also working in infosec, which is one of the least represented when it comes to gender balance…

While I (and she) do agree that she's not the best person to represent women in tech (she says so herself) a lot of people who have been do agree in the comments, and she does work with a big company that does development (.net, Windows Phone work, design and everything else in between too in a giant open plan office. So she does see more than you'd initially think)

That's like saying "I work as a nurse in a hospital in the 1950s". Sure, you may see some sexism second hand, but if you're a female doctor in the same position, it's a totally different experience.

The primary thing I didn't like about the author's article was that her criticism of the original article (which were totally valid, by the way) kind of concluded with the impression (given by her anecdotal experience) that "sexism isn't as bad as it's made out to be, look, I haven't seen any."

The truth is it is there, and it can be pretty bad in some cases, although these scare articles by the author she was criticizing isn't really giving any meaningful advice on how to do deal with it.

Interesting she works in a big shop... coincides with my experiences that larger orgs tend to be more comfortable/friendly to women.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#114

Post by Swizec »

belorn wrote: post #90
bane wrote: post #31

There is certainly sexism in the tech industry. It's not terribly common or widespread, but it's there. But the tech industry is also famously self-selective. Many people in the industry self-selected for it when they were pre-teens. Spending hours upon hours programming in BASIC or whatever on their C64s or TRS-80s before they were out of elementary school...before thoughts of sexism enter the consciousness. There i…

Its interesting that the tech industry has so high number of people that learned the basic work skills at a very low age. Very few other professions has this. A plumber did not go around fixing pipes at age 10. A medic, while they might have played doctor, do not really learn any of the basic skills until hitting university education. The lawyer when he was 10 is unlikely to be reading law documents. Beyond maybe the…

Chemistry comes to mind. Actually, all fields of the natural sciences seem to have an extent of people playing around with X when they were just children and then somehow magically going on to doing it after high school as well.

Actually, I would go so far as saying every profession with a high ratio of very passionate people and low-ish barrier to entry will exhibit something like this.

Sports are a magnificent example.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#115

Post by toadburglar »

zachinglis wrote: post #112
rada wrote: post #99

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a…

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I kn…

What are your thoughts on the rashness of publishing her post, rather than attempting (more than just Twitter) to improve the article. What we could have had is a truly great (and revised) article on the top of HN rather than this troll inducing post and discussion?

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#117

Post by [deleted] »

zachinglis wrote: post #112
rada wrote: post #99

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a…

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I kn…

[deleted]

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#118

Post by tommorris »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #109
tommorris wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rockstar shit is a filter for me. If a company advertises itself as wanting rockstars, ninjas, "hardcore" people, or whatever brogrammer bullshit of the week is, I put that job advert to the bottom of my list. The thought of working around the sort of people who would apply because they consider themselves a hardcore ninja rockstar puts me off. (I spent more than enough time with homophobic macho fuckwits when I…

We judge people who dress to manipulate, whether it's "trust me" or "pay attention to me". The fact that a cheap costume might influence others' decisions is a social bug, and I kind of resent anyone knowingly exploiting it.

Okay, so consistency question.

A male friend of mine recently testified before a parliamentary committee on computer security. He wore a suit, as one might expect. If he hadn't dressed formally, the committee wouldn't have trusted him, even if he'd said exactly the same things (which consisted of being highly critical of a proposed government technology policy).

A female software developer friend of mine has gone home after work and changed into a less formal outfit before going to a developer event in order so that people don't assume that she is a marketing or sales person or just there to accompany her boyfriend.

Both of these are uses of dress to influence other people's decisions and attitudes. Are either one, or both of them, worthy of the resentment you describe? And why do we pick, say, dress out as something where manipulation for social ends is bad but, say, typography isn't? If someone is preparing a resume for a job and uses an inappropriate font (Comic Sans, maybe), I'll tell him not to do so. But if he wears a tie during the interview, is he trying to emotionally manipulate people?

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#119

Post by [deleted] »

belorn wrote: post #90
bane wrote: post #31

There is certainly sexism in the tech industry. It's not terribly common or widespread, but it's there. But the tech industry is also famously self-selective. Many people in the industry self-selected for it when they were pre-teens. Spending hours upon hours programming in BASIC or whatever on their C64s or TRS-80s before they were out of elementary school...before thoughts of sexism enter the consciousness. There i…

Its interesting that the tech industry has so high number of people that learned the basic work skills at a very low age. Very few other professions has this. A plumber did not go around fixing pipes at age 10. A medic, while they might have played doctor, do not really learn any of the basic skills until hitting university education. The lawyer when he was 10 is unlikely to be reading law documents. Beyond maybe the…

[deleted]

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#120

Post by trhtrsh »

belorn wrote: post #90
bane wrote: post #31

There is certainly sexism in the tech industry. It's not terribly common or widespread, but it's there. But the tech industry is also famously self-selective. Many people in the industry self-selected for it when they were pre-teens. Spending hours upon hours programming in BASIC or whatever on their C64s or TRS-80s before they were out of elementary school...before thoughts of sexism enter the consciousness. There i…

Its interesting that the tech industry has so high number of people that learned the basic work skills at a very low age. Very few other professions has this. A plumber did not go around fixing pipes at age 10. A medic, while they might have played doctor, do not really learn any of the basic skills until hitting university education. The lawyer when he was 10 is unlikely to be reading law documents. Beyond maybe the…

> A medic, while they might have played doctor, do not really learn any of the basic skills until hitting university education.

The medics I know personally:

* Volunteered in ER in high school -> Doctor

* EMT and high-hours babysitting in college -> Children's Therapist

Also, sports profession :-)

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