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On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

laurasanders.net

41–50 of 213 posts

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aggressive behavior will get you nowhere. ESPECIALLY because of your earlier post. This is not against men having a view. But a woman is far more likely to understand sexism AGAINST women - because of (shock horror) being women.

Expressing an opinion is considered "aggressive behavior" now? Ahahaha, oh feminists, you're so crazy. Anyway, you're saying that being female per se makes someone's opinion more valuable, which is a blatantly sexist opinion itself. Congratulations for shooting yourself in the foot and saying goodbye to what little credibility you had. Next!

So, you have only just registered an hour ago under a username that is chosen to reference the title of one article, purely in order to troll that article.

You should probably not bother trying to argue from a position of credibility really.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#42
post #34

This is a really unfortunate treatment of a serious topic. There are valuable insights, but the signal to noise ratio is too low. To be clear, I'm not launching the "I didn't like your TONE"; I'm launching the "I didn't like how you trivialized and subverted your own argument". To take just the first 3 points made: 1. Is the objection to the inclusion of a glossary? The serious criticism is that sexism is not rape, a…

Just because she didn't write as if her blog were an academic journal doesn't mean she isn't giving a serious topic the treatment it deserves. Her post exists to state that "the whole [.net] article is hyperbolic generalisation."

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#43
post #11

Randi Harper a.k.a. FreeBSD Girl was interviewed for the FLOSS Weekly podcast and she said that every minute spent on discussing gender issues in technology is a wasted minute that should be better spent building free software.

Great quote. I try to convey this to people. Melvin Van Peebles didn't complain that blacks were underrepresented in Hollywood. He just went out and made Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song (and it wasn't easy). That movie ushered a new era of black cinema. He solved the problem by doing, not pontificating.

I'm not saying there's no room for talking, but at this point no one is bringing anything new to the table; I'm saying if you want to solve a problem do something about it. Lead by example.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#45
Faruk Ateş' at least got this part right:

The tone of our debates – which often get quite heated – is frequently different based on the gender of the author(s).

Sanders' article seems a little more rant-y than it should be for someone who is basing her experiences "in the industry" (UK) since April 2012. Not that a relatively small amount of experience means you can't have an opinion, but it can't be good to become totally blind to something just because you don't want to see it.

Given a little bit of time, perhaps she will see that some sexism-based discrimination does exist -- not just in tech but pretty much every industry. But it's not the kind related to violence or "rape culture", but rather of pay. It is a cold, hard fact: women make less than men.

Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#46
I think the original article touches on some good points, and I can understand the need for Laura to voice her opinion, but the author MUST have wrote the article with good intentions.

Personally, if I were really affected by an article I get in touch with the author, have a skype call and get all the concerns out in the open, and work together to revise the article so that both parties are happy with it. Then if the author didn't want to know etc, THEN I'd write the rebuttal.

I don't want to be harsh here, but Laura could have shared her input privately and together created a exceptional article with valid points and different perspectives, but instead when to route of going public and (potentially) damaging the authors name in the process.

We're all professionals, and can take criticisms, especially if they were voiced in a constructive way as a means to create something better. Laura's article begs the question whether her intentions are destructive, or whether her aim was to build and improve.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#48
post #32

Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things witho…

>Then there's the awful problem of low numbers. If you meet a crummy male developer, well, he's a crummy developer. If you meet a bad female developer, she's probably a significant portion of all female developers that you've met - and so at least subconsciously, I think that for many the association becomes that female developers are bad (since hey, 33.3% of all female developers you've worked with aren't that great).

This class of bias works both ways. When a man is wronged it's an injustice towards the individual. When a woman is wronged it's an injustice towards women.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking feminism to be broadly the belief that women and men should have equal social, political and economic rights, I would be very upset if the site wasn't infested with feminists.

You're describing egalitarianism, not feminism. When you see an article being advertised as "by an actual girl", you know it's not about equality.

> feminism |ˈfeməˌnizəm|

> noun

> the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

No, he's describing feminism.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#50
Ehh... Yeah. The original article was kind of a pile of crap, but it's hard to give this any credibility either.

1) She's only worked for 6 months 2) She works in UX, which is actually pretty well represented by women.

My two cents from a woman who actually works in a technical position (I'm a developer) for > 10 years now. Also working in infosec, which is one of the least represented when it comes to gender balance. Note: this is all totally anecdotal.

IMHO, "Imposter Syndrome" is one of the primary reasons we don't have more women in the industry, and it's reinforced heavily because of the culture of most workplaces. Why? When you emphasize a "brogrammer" and "rockstar" culture it's hard to believe that you can step in there and be just as "good as the guys."

When I'm talking about brogramming culture, I am not talking about silly shit like they turned the woman's bathroom to a man's one (lol, they did this at one company I worked at) or that you need to stop making fart jokes etc. I mean the idea we are all super awesome rockstars that sling amazing code and everyone else around you is shit and an idiot for not knowing something that you (and the other guys) know. When you're already feeling kind of alienated for being different, this can be really intimidating (and it's worse when people point it out -- I was asked an interview for a programming teaching position at a university BY A PROFESSOR "how will you handle it if people don't take you seriously as a female?")

I struggled with this for many years. I always assumed everyone around me knew more about computers (they didn't) and their code was 100% perfect (lol, it wasn't).

The effect for me was I was afraid to ask questions and when I wanted to figure out something, I did the research/reading on my own because I felt I had to prove that I was 110% competent - imagine how much time I could have saved and how much faster I would have progressed if in those early days I had just felt more comfortable asking people for help.

Because of this, I think corporate environments are an easier more comfortable place for a woman to work in a programming job than startups and small companies (again, this isn't universal). Which is sad, because I love working at a small company. And the startup space could benefit from women (since there are so few people usually in a startup, esp if you're building a product that will be widely used by women, it is invaluable to have that perspective).

2) What can you do about it? Well, if you're a woman, and you want to be in the tech field because you love working with computers, and you continue to pursue it, you're doing something already. You're an example to every other woman. I think only in this way, eventually the gender balance will even out. If you're a guy, and you want to hire a woman to join your technical team, emphasize the collaborative nature and how much they will learn on the job. Hire for smarts and ability to learn, not just knowing how to write a rails app in one day and knowing how to debug a deadlock with gdb etc.

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