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Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

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Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#371
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people screaming "but AI is the future" I witnes far more people screaming against AI. The media started kicking this off in 2021, 2022. It blossomed into a fully distributed, organic, memetic device from there. It has a life of its own now. Children and young people are practically indoctrinated if you look at social media comments. I was invited to give lectures to several art schools about using Blender, Unreal…

There is a clear substance behind the pushback on AI in creative work, and it would be foolish to dismiss it as irrational. You might be missing the forest for the trees if you focus too much in implementation details, the dislike for is AI is a bit deeper than that.

On the other hand, it also sometimes feels as if some "old media" journalists see AI as a convenient target to avenge the tech sector for disrupting them. Not that it makes AI slop any less sloppy.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Children are growing up with ChatGPT and Gemini" Yes. "It has already become the de facto standard for learning." Maybe. "AI in browsers is inevitable." Why. How does that follow. It seems like ChatGPT and Gemini are already working fine, what does the integration add?

And assuming people want deeper integration is the browser even the right level of abstraction? Arguably it would be better to have something that was operating at the OS level, like siri/gemini assistant style.

Precisely. Like the winner could be in 100 spaces, but more likely going to be something global.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully disagree. I use zero so-called "AI" features in my day to day life. None. Not one. Why do I need them in my browser, and why does my browser need to focus on something that, several years into the hype wave, I still *do not use at all*? And it's not for a lack of trying, the results are just not what I need or want, and traditional browsing (and search engines, etc.) does do what I want. I'd be elated if Firefo…

AI tools are here to stay. They will start to creep into everything, everywhere, all the time. Either you recognize the moment at which it becomes a significant disadvantage not to use them (I agree that moment is not now), or get left behind.

I don't think it's quite that simple. A great deal of work has nothing to do with computers, and even more human activity has nothing to do with economic advantage. The scope of your statement is a bit too broad in that regard but for computer based work I think you are a) more or less right but b) if you are right it's not clear how much economic benefit LLMs will actually provide on balance, long term.

Does it make the world a better place, and more prosperous? Does it just move economic activity around a bit in regards to who is doing what? We'll find out in ten years when the retrospective economic studies are done.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#374
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was also no expectation of process isolation in Mozilla Firefox when Google Chrome first came into the scenes. Electrolysis was painful for Mozilla and yet it was necessary.

So instead of being flexible enough to adapt to new requirements as users demand them, they are blindly implementing things before they are requested just in case?

Last I checked Firefox was sitting at 4% browser market share. If you include Brave you just get to 5%[0].

So truth is that privacy isn't enough to get people to switch. 5% share isn't enough to stay alive and protect privacy.

  > they are blindly implementing things before they are requested
This is the job of every engineer. Your job is to understand the product and where it advances and where it can help the users. The users don't know the technical side. They barely know what they want. Yes, you should listen to users but you also have to read between the lines to actually figure out what they want. Frankly, the truth of the matter is that what people say they want is very different than what they actually want.

Work with customers and you'll experience this first hand... I thought it was a big enough meme that everyone knew this

Speaking about reading between the lines, the privacy community is not very good at advocating for privacy. Look at Signal, it has similar backlash to Mozilla. The community shoots itself in the foot because the products are not perfect. But here's the thing, both Signal and Firefox are not products intended to maximize privacy at all costs. They are products to maximize privacy while being appealing to the masses. Are there more secure and private solutions out there? Hell yeah. But are those tools practical for the masses? Don't fool yourselves.

So stop with this bullshit, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You don't have to use Firefox to root for them. Go use a fork like the Mullvad browser or Waterfox. If you're a power user then just be a fucking power user. I use Arch but that doesn't mean I'm going to piss on Ubuntu every chance I get. I fucking hate Ubuntu but I'm going to root for them because every new Ubuntu user is one less for Microsoft and Apple and every new Ubuntu user is a potential new user. So why get angry because someone is making a step in the right direction? So what if their legs aren't long enough to get all the way to where you are (which didn't take one step either!).

So let's be very clear about this. I'm not mad at you because I want AI in Firefox (I don't), I'm mad at you because you're attacking our literal last line of defense for a secure and private internet. I'm mad at you for purity testing. Stop with this "no true Scotsman" bullshit. We can have those arguments at a later date when Firefox isn't on its last leg and/or when we have a diverse choice in browsers. But at this point *all you are doing is advocating for Chrome*. Whether you realize it our not. We've been playing this fucking game for a decade now and you can either look at the results or continue to ignore them. But it didn't work, so we need to try something else.

[0] https://radar.cloudflare.com/reports/browser-market-share-20...

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how Firefox fell behind Chrome and bled their entire market share. The strategy of letting Chrome out innovate them and then copy what they think is good is not a strategy that works.

It works pretty well for Apple

Not on desktop. They are losing market share to chrome year over year.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#376
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes. Firefox and Chrome already offer this. yes, both use machine learning methods to translate pages. You're already using AI and don't realize it.

Nowadays they call AI everything. Browsers translate websites from decades, when AI was only a word you would see in science fiction movies.

AI is a broad term going back to 1955. It covers many different techniques, algorithms, and topics. The first AI chess programs (DeepBlue, et. al.) were using tree search algorithms like alpha-beta pruning that are/were classified as AI techniques.

Machine translation is a research topic in AI because translating from one language to another is something humans are good at while computers are not traditionally.

More recently, the machine learning (ML) branch of AI has become synonymous with AI as have the various image models and LLMs built on different ML architectures.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#377

I'm going to chime in here, I think 1. This is great and Mozilla is listening to it's core fans and 2. I want Firefox to be a competitive browser. Without AI enabled features + agent mode being first class citizens, this will be a non-starter in 2 years. I want my non-tech family members/friends to install Firefox not because I come over at Christmas, but because they want to. Because it's a browser that "just works.…

>Without AI enabled features + agent mode being first class citizens, this will be a non-starter in 2 years. I want an application to serve me webpages and manage said webpages. It wasn't a "non-starter" for me 2 years ago when I switched off Chrome who chose to be too user hostile to ignore. It won't be a non-starter here. >I want my non-tech family members/friends to install Firefox not because I come over at Chris…

If you want to be a power user, then be a power user. Switch to a fork like Mullvad or Waterfox.

Seriously, I don't get the problem here. I don't want AI in my browser either, but it is pretty simple for us who care to switch away. It's even easy for those who aren't technically skilled!

If this is what stops Firefox from drowning then I'm all for it. They are our last line of defense from a Google controlled internet. What Firefox puts in their browser isn't that critical to me (i.e. doesn't affect me) as long as it stays open source and there are forks. But Firefox dying does! So yeah, I'm gonna root for Firefox even when it does things I don't want because what I care about far more than any specific browser feature is the internet not being controlled by any single entity.

So can we make sure we're fighting the right battles?

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#378
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you ever need a website you're visiting translated? Have you ever not understood a term or phrase on a website and had to go to wikipedia/urbandictionary/google to explain it? Have you ever wanted to do a 'fuzzy search' of a 300 page document (where you don't know the exact string of text to ctrl-f, but want to see where they talk about a particular topic)?

>Do you ever need a website you're visiting translated? Yes, I have an extension for that. >Have you ever not understood a term or phrase on a website and had to go to wikipedia/urbandictionary/google to explain it? I have an extension that double clicks and brings up a quick definition. If I need more, I will go to the dictionary. >Have you ever wanted to do a 'fuzzy search' of a 300 page document (where you don't k…

  > You see the pattern here?
Yes. The pattern is that you find these features useful.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully disagree. I use zero so-called "AI" features in my day to day life. None. Not one. Why do I need them in my browser, and why does my browser need to focus on something that, several years into the hype wave, I still *do not use at all*? And it's not for a lack of trying, the results are just not what I need or want, and traditional browsing (and search engines, etc.) does do what I want. I'd be elated if Firefo…

AI tools are here to stay. They will start to creep into everything, everywhere, all the time. Either you recognize the moment at which it becomes a significant disadvantage not to use them (I agree that moment is not now), or get left behind.

The metaverse is here to stay! Blockchain is the future!

Without integrating metaverse and blockchain features into Firefox, Mozilla is at a significant disadvantage compared to other browsers. Don't get left behind!

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like it, but ChatGPT is a product that nearly a billion people are using. It's broken into popular culture. My mom, who has trouble sending an email, uses it. She found it on her own. More importantly, generative AI is incredibly popular with younger cohorts. They will grow up to be your customer base if they aren't already. Their expectations are being set now . Again, I don't like it, but that's the reality…

Video games are incredibly popular and my mom plays them, does that mean Firefox should have video games baked in at the base layer?

Firefox needs to immediately build Candy Crush into the browser. Users expect to be able to access Candy Crush and only at the layer of web browser can such a thing be implemented.
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