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Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

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Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#731
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a real concern in the sense that a lot of them care about the capability. Objectively a Ford F-150 is the wrong vehicle for what 90% of its buyers need. But it’s an aspirational purchase. It can go off-road. It can haul a boat. It can haul a bed full of gravel. It doesn’t matter for these purchasers that they rarely if ever actually do any of this.

This logic is only ever applied to trucks. The majority of HNers did not make an economically rational decision when they bought their Macbook or iPhone. Consumers buy what they like and feel like they need and can afford. They place an almost absurdly high value on convenience and not having to think about things like "oh I need to move this thing I need to go rent a truck because I only ever need to do this once ev…

I have a long history of sneering at people who ceaselessly buy Apple products despite their lack of economic "efficiency" but I "have a finely calibrated sense of value" ie I'm a tightwad.

Being "economically efficient" with laptop purchases saves you a few hundred to a thousand dollars.

Being just reasonable with a car purchase saves you $25k.

These are not at all comparable to the average american.

The average new car price is $50k. Almost zero people need that. The Toyota Corolla, which is overpriced, still starts at under $25k. Considering inflation it's about 30% more expensive than the base model from the 90s, but the modern Corolla is more comparable IMO to the old Camry, who's price point it exactly matches.

For that money you get a safer car than the 90s, dramatically so. You get modern infotainment, like CarPlay and AndroidAuto. You get a backup camera and bluetooth connectivity. Aircon, power windows, central locking. You get 170HP from a 2.0L 4cyl that is rather silly for a commuter car. Only 32 mpg City. This is a small family car.

But Americans do not want that. Americans want to put down $50k for 80 months for a MANLY man truck for MANLY MAN things. Or the same money for a stupid box on the same frame as an """SUV"""

This is not "avocado toast" or "Just get a roommate". Americans are spending absurd money on absurd vehicles for absurd reasons.

Advances in the reliability of modern cars made the car market weird. If you have any financial sense at all, new cars almost never make sense, because the 5 year old model is still excellent. That means the only people left in that market are not making decisions on financial merits. But that also means the entire market is controlled by the whims of the easily persuadeable and financially illiterate.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've not hooked up the transfer switch yet but we have ran a lot of extension cords during an ice storm last year and kept all our aquariums going, all 700 gallons of them

If you’ve had it for that long without installing the crucial part of what you described above as a major selling point, I think that would have been useful to volunteer in the original comment lol. The extension cord thing was interesting too, but “I sold my partner on a feature that turned out to be more trouble than it was worth to set up” is super relevant to discussion!

We haven't needed to yet. Our primary concern are those aquariums and it worked wonderfully for them when we needed it. Much better than running through over a hundred dollars a day in propane to keep them running, and the truck parks in an insulated garage so no cords to a generator through a window letting the cold in

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#733
post #233

We don't want your electric car ... we want your car, but electric . We want an electric F150 or an electric Suburban or v90 wagon or whatever. But instead we get e-initiative i-mobiles. We get TRON-cars. We get iModels. There is a reason for this: The incumbent auto makers understand fully that the ICE version of whatever model they electrify will suffer enormously. They believe that they can somehow retain all of t…

> The incumbent auto makers understand fully that the ICE version of whatever model they electrify will suffer enormously. So you're saying they make _less_ profit on the EVs? That seems dubious. > They believe that they can somehow retain all of the sales of the existing ICE model while adding growth sales of a different electric model. Well.. precisely. Isn't the solution to make the EVs more profitable than the IC…

Dealers certainly make less profit on EVs. The Dealer model was built around regular, required maintenance schedules as profit centers. EVs have far fewer moving parts and fluids with regular maintenance schedules.

Dealers are incentivized to sell more ICE than EVs for the good of their own profits. Ford and GM unfortunately can't cannibalize their relationship with dealers under current American regulations and so will feel a lot of pressure to somehow keep EVs "luxury" and low volume/high margin deals for the dealers so they feel less bad about the loss of maintenance profits.

At one point Ford was teasing building their EV division as a mini-startup with direct-to-consumer sales and no pressure to meet dealer needs/demands, because that would be the only true way to compete with Tesla and Rivian and others. That probably would have been the best interest for Ford EVs, but obviously just floating those rumors was enough to stop it by the number of dealers that are also shareholders in Ford. (A problem for Ford all the way back to Ford v. Dodge Brothers.)

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s an unfair comparison because you can’t count gas pumps used to charge in your locality - those are replaced by charging at bome.

when you need a charger there is rarely any choice of location. Charging at home doesn't help when you are not home. Those rare public chargers is what you need and they can be hard to find.

This varies a lot based on where you are. For the trips I usually take around in Texas where I need public chargers, I actually usually do have a choice of chargers. I understand this isn't universally true in other parts of the US though.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significant portions of the body and interior were not shared with general F-150 models... At least those parts most likely to be damaged in minor accidents... imagine having your work truck in the shop for 2-3 months for want of a corner light fixture.

Parts availability is not a problem for established manufacturers, especially mass market vehicles.

I guess the F-150 Lightning and Electric Mustang weren't from an established mfg... because they regularly were waiting months on parts.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

90% of F-150s are daily driver grocery-getters. That was the target for the Lightning, not truck stuff.

Which is odd because this is how they mostly marketed it on release: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42BmZ6Rgqkc Also most people I know who use F-150s in the way you describe also typically have two children or more. It's not as if this was a segment that was particularly hard to pin down. They just completely wiffed.

[deleted]

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#737
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger issue is parts availability over the repairability issue... from what I understand, these have been quite reliable but parts for Ford's EVs have been backordered as much as months, where having a "work truck" down for months is an intolerable position. The cost is also kind of crazy between inflated factory and dealer pricing as much as $20k over sticker price. Yeah, there was some early demand, bu…

I mean the biggest issue is that “trucks” like F-150 are actually used because of US tax system that exempts such massive vehicles from emmision taxes because they are work trucks. They are pretty ineffective work vehicles but some people just love them as a symbol. That symbolism goes completely against electric/green vehicles. In other words - people who buy F-150 would never buy electric vehicle and people who are…

From my limited checks (CA and AZ) pickup trucks aren't exempt from emissions testing or taxes. There are some partial exemptions in CA apparently, but that's a state with massively high taxes all around.

Also, the most green vehicle is the one you keep operating over any new vehicle, electric or not. Truck owners tend to measure their ownership in decades.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were gunshy about trying out VR. You'd never even worn a pair before and you wanted to give it a shot. Would you be more willing to spend $300 on a Quest or would you rather spend $3500 on an Apple Vision Pro? Now let's pretend we're in an alternate timeline and the $300 Quest never existed. The only option available to you was the $3500 option. Are you still interested in trying out VR? MSRP might not be the…

Apples and oranges. You can lease a vehicle. You cannot lease a VR headset.

> You cannot lease a VR headset.

Sure you can! You shouldn't, but you can!

https://www.rentacenter.com/en-us/p/electronics/gaming/virtu...

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#739
post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alaska checking in. Nobody is hauling a skidoo around here in a van. You also won’t see anyone towing a trailer with one or two machines with anything other than a truck, because nothing else is going to hack it in the mountains with all that. I currently just drive mine up a ramp into the truck bed, I can quickly park and get off and go and back on again. Very versatile combo to get around with. Right tool for the j…

When I lived in anchorage ages ago Subarus were really popular. Everyone with a truck had to put a bunch of weight in the back to manage the roads in the winter.

It’s the same here in Fairbanks. We also have an Outback that we drove here when we moved a decade ago (towing a trailer, no less). That and the Prius both handle fabulously with winter tires. Since I only use the truck for hauling, it’s always weighted in the back!

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#740

The F-150 is in one of the markets I think ev's will take over first (small commercial vehicles) but it just was not the right vehicle to start with. To expensive, even when the tax incentives were still a thing, and Ford suffers from having corrupt dealers taking a large cut on top of that. So you are selling to either the top 5% or bigger businesses. If you are a top 5% buying this you want it to tow your expensive…

> Ford suffers from having corrupt dealers Do you mean that dealers ask for bribes to customers to deliver cars, or that customers bribe dealers to skip the waiting list, or something like that?

In many states in the United States it is illegal to buy a car directly from the manufacturer or from a dealer owned by the manufacturer. In all states it is illegal for a manufacturer with an existing independent dealer network (which is to say, every manufacturer except the EV startups) to sell directly to the customer or to open a new factory-owned dealer.

So companies like Ford can only sell what independent dealers want to sell. You can go to the dealer and ask to buy a car sitting on the lot, and the dealer can just… not sell you the car. For any price. And it is also illegal for the manufacturer to force/coerce the dealer to sell it to you.

Of course the dealer can do softer things also, like talk down the car when you test drive or talk up the benefits of other cars. Or tell you that next year’s model will be much better than this one, so you should wait.

Additionally, most dealers do not actually pay for the car until it is sold to the customer (the manufacturer offers financing to the dealer, called “floor planning”).

Independent dealers do not want to sell EVs because of the perceived loss of service revenue. So they simply offer bad deals on the car that most customers would not take. The cars sit on the dealer’s lot, but that costs the dealer nothing (see above), even though Ford wants to sell an EV and customers want to buy EVs.

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