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NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

philippeoger.com

171–180 of 180 posts

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#171
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're unrelated. Groq = chip company, Grok = model by x.ai.

The similarity in names is likely to Groq’s detriment.

Maybe, but they'd been operating under that name for 7 years before Elon came along and decided he needed a name for his model.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#172
post #3

The critiques of 'circular funding' don't really make sense to me. If you invest 20 billion and you get back 20 billion, your profit is the same. Sure your revenues look higher but investors have access to all that information and should be taking that into account, just like all the other financial data. Michael Burry is betting against AI growth translating into real profits as a whole, not the circular funding.

to me bigger problem emerges if you assume all those companies in the 'circular financing infographic' as one conglomerate. then essentially all you are left with is real demand for AI & I just dont really see much of it besides Hype and FOMO. that falls away the moment CFOs get 'permission' to ignore the AI growth story. besides that I only see coding bot and openAI's consumer subscription business. I dont see that becoming $1T business anytime soon. so what gives? I think Burry is right but I am not sure of timing because they just need one funder to extend and pretend for a few more quarters & DJT can do it under guise of datacenter jobs etc.

Circular thing is bad too but from a different angle, Imagine if the whole TPU vs GPU thing erodes Nvidia's moat and its profit margins compress. if that happens how long it can keep feeding the same unproductive 'pets.AI' type startups? one break in the narrative and tragedy of commons strikes. will it happen soon? anybody's guess but given Trump is at helm and there is going to be new Fed chief, I doubt it would be anywhere near soon. Definitely not before mid-terms are locked in.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#173
post #81

Not a big fan of the circular observation. It's not the gotcha people seem to think. If the baker sells bread to the butcher, and the butcher sells meat to the baker then they can still both go to bed with a belly full of sandwich (aka actual utility & substance). Adding a third party to make it look more circle-y doesn't change that logic. Round trip financing is mostly an issue if it is artificial (e.g. a circle of…

If the baker loans to the butcher so that the butcher can buy from the baker, then the baker comes out ahead only if the butcher is good for the money.

You need something of substance exchanged, not just delivered. Nvidia hasn't gotten anything of substance from OpenAI yet.

I don't know shit about AI, but Nvidia could still give me $100b to buy their GPUs. Now I build a datacenter and Nvidia gets to claim $100b worth of sales AND a $100b stake in my datacenter. As I understand it, that's what's earning Nvidia all this side-eye.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#174
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if the conclusion is broadly correct, that doesn't mean the reasoning used to get there is consistent. This is the conclusion of a reply that focused entirely on critiquing OP's style/AI use instead of their reasoning? Ironic.

If someone generates a ten thousand word slop essay with AI, do I have a moral obligation to critique its reasoning step by step instead of merely pointing out its origin? If I do, it just so happens I have a ten thousand word rebuttal for you…

If someone generates a massive essay with AI, you don't have a moral obligation to do anything.

If you want to argue that the reasoning in the essay is incorrect, I do expect you to refute the reasoning instead of merely attacking the source.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#175
post #3

The critiques of 'circular funding' don't really make sense to me. If you invest 20 billion and you get back 20 billion, your profit is the same. Sure your revenues look higher but investors have access to all that information and should be taking that into account, just like all the other financial data. Michael Burry is betting against AI growth translating into real profits as a whole, not the circular funding.

Just invest 20 billion, get 20 billion back on its own isn't inherently a problem. The issue is it may inflate the figures and valuation for NVIDIA such that it collapses when the boom ends. If their sales rely on handing loss making companies like OpenAI money to buy their products then that may fall apart if things turn. Cisco did similar in the dotcom boom and bust. On the other hand if OpenAI doesn't collapse then the investment goes up and everyone wins. It's kind of a gamble on that sort of thing.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I haven't commented on HN in a while and didn't want to dig up my password. Throwaway accounts are a tradition. 2. I don't want people to see my disparagement of the quality of prose in this article as indication of personal agreement or disagreement with any of the points in the article. I have no horse in this race. I just want to read high-quality material. I love HN, but I'm not sure how much longer HN will be…

The problems with #2 and #3 are they are equally, if not more, valuable points to those wishing to hide their identity for nefarious reasons instead. I.e. that nameless "just makes you think, doesn't it" kind of farming. Identity (as in an account history) provides not only a community here, but easily rules out a lot of malicious wordsmithing concerns. Not that I place any of that on you in this case, just the gener…

your comment is guideline breaking :)

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#177
post #171
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The similarity in names is likely to Groq’s detriment.

Maybe, but they'd been operating under that name for 7 years before Elon came along and decided he needed a name for his model.

The swastika was in use for thousands of years before Hitler and his crowd changed its meaning forever.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems with #2 and #3 are they are equally, if not more, valuable points to those wishing to hide their identity for nefarious reasons instead. I.e. that nameless "just makes you think, doesn't it" kind of farming. Identity (as in an account history) provides not only a community here, but easily rules out a lot of malicious wordsmithing concerns. Not that I place any of that on you in this case, just the gener…

your comment is guideline breaking :)

Most are once it goes meta :D.

On that note, if anyone ever suspects a certain account/comment set as actually being nefarious, the note to reach out to hn@ycombinator.com in the guidelines is no lip service - they really do look right into it and get back to you (often with speedy action about it too). It's by far the best action you can take to keep the community feeling in the comments when you think it's actually occuring!

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#179
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the wrong analogy, because the butcher is giving money to the baker for the bread. If we we fix the analogy, then the baker gives money to the butcher so that he buys their bread with that money . The butcher cannot afford the bread without it!

>so that he buys their bread with that money. So basically like any business out there reliant on incoming cash to pay suppliers? This doesn't magically create money any more than the rest of the economy...which has believe it or not CIRCULATING money

Can you name one business that takes their supplier's money to buy back from them?

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#180
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Wash trading is about selling and then requiring the same asset for tax purposes. How is this analogous, other than that you presumably dislike both practices?

In crypto, wash trading usually refers to the practice of exchanges or project creators colluding to trade the same asset back and forth in order to make the volume/liquidity/popularity look greater than it is. - "Our coin hit $100M daily volume, get on this rocketship before it's too late!" - "Our exchange does $1B annually, so you know we're trustworthy!" - "Hey investors, look at the massive demand for our GPUs (d…

Yes, when NVIDIA gives assets to a third party in return for a stake in the company, and then that company uses those assets to secure loans, and those loans are predicated on the value of that asset, thats a single asset being claimed by multiple parties who will all write in their books the value of that asset.

Its generating the facade of activity, the same.

You are right theres no public ledger for the wash trading, but the fact that the underlying real physical asset is NVIDIAs product, lends the same intentional activity: to leverage apparent markeet activity to inflate the value of assets.

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