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NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

philippeoger.com

131–140 of 180 posts

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#131
post #3

The critiques of 'circular funding' don't really make sense to me. If you invest 20 billion and you get back 20 billion, your profit is the same. Sure your revenues look higher but investors have access to all that information and should be taking that into account, just like all the other financial data. Michael Burry is betting against AI growth translating into real profits as a whole, not the circular funding.

I'm not sold on the circular funding argument either, though it certainly wouldn't surprise me if it (or some other form of corruption/collusion) turned out to be true to some extent. Personally, I firmly believe that Silicon Valley jumped-the-gun early on AI investment for fear of being left behind and over-estimating the potential of LLM-based AI (at least in the short term), and now are stuck in the awkward position of not being able to admit it without shaking investor confidence which they don't want to do as they still need significant more investment to mature the tech to a point that it starts paying significant returns with respect to the investment.

> Michael Burry is betting against AI growth translating into real profits as a whole, not the circular funding.

It's not even so much that he's betting against that translating into profits, but rather that the pace of infrastructure investments is too out of sync with the timeline of realizing those profits, and also that throwing money at the problem doesn't necessarily move that break-even ROI timetable forward in a sustainable way (beyond a certain point).

That's what popped the DotCom bubble. It was the fundamental fallacy that potential profits and revenues were directly proportional to and/or dependent on investment, and even more specifically that more investment would realize not just greater returns, but the belief that more investment yielded greater return sooner which just wasn't true - at least not beyond a certain point. So while many people associate the Pets.com flop with the dotcom bubble, it was actually over investment in and by Cisco (chiefly, but not solely) that really precipitated the bubble bursting.

A lot of people see lots of parallels with the AI bubble in that context. If the ROI timeframe is greater than the viable lifecycle of hardware bought today, how wise is it to spend big today? Does it accelerate the timeframe if you spend more, and if so by how much, and up to what point? There's also something to be said about market momentum and strategic positioning, but that's hard to quantify, especially in the context of forecasting how impactful it will be on realizing your ROI at some indefinite point in the future.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#132

This is what happens when highly confident uneducated people read slop from other uneducated people with an agenda (Twitter, Burry et al) and then regurgitate more slop. There is no circular funding. There’s certainly circular speculation that is driving up the prices but the revenues are all accounted. The DSO change is meaningless if you understand accounting. The inventory building up is the cost of materials and…

Are partially processed wafers on Nvidia's balance sheet or TSMC's? Or are you saying Nvidia is holding sawn die in inventory? Confused as to what state the product might be in for it to make sense to hold for 4 months when supposedly you can sell everything you make.

They are on nvidias balance sheet. You also don’t sell freshly baked chips the way you do cookies. Just because they are hot out of the oven doesn’t mean you sell it right away.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#133
post #3

The critiques of 'circular funding' don't really make sense to me. If you invest 20 billion and you get back 20 billion, your profit is the same. Sure your revenues look higher but investors have access to all that information and should be taking that into account, just like all the other financial data. Michael Burry is betting against AI growth translating into real profits as a whole, not the circular funding.

>should be taking that into account

There's a lot of "shoulds" that go out the window when you're basically in a hype cycle. We're high stakes rolling at this point. It's a matter of when the house goes broke.

>Michael Burry is betting against AI growth translating into real profits as a whole, not the circular funding.

One can lead to the other.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#134
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still scale SRAM by stacking it in 3D layers, similar to the common approach now used with NAND flash. I think HBM DRAM is also directly stacked on-die to begin with, apparently that's the best approach to scaling memory bandwidth too. It'll be interesting to see if we get any kind of non-NAND persistent memory in the near future, that might beat some performance metrics of both DRAM and NAND flash.

NAND is built with dozens of layers on one die. HBM DRAM is a dozen-ish dies stacked and interconnected with TSVs, but only one layer of memory cells per die. AMD's X3D CPUs have a single SRAM die stacked on top of the regular CPU+SRAM, with TSVs in the L3 cache to connect to the extra SRAM. I'm not aware of anyone shipping a product that stacks multiple SRAM dies; the tech definitely exists but it may not be economi…

Every time I read about D|S-RAM scaling I'm reminded of https://www.besang.com/

Ever heard of them? What do you think? Vaporware?

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#135
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this isn't an investing site but Coreweave is what I watch. All those freaking datacenters have to get built, come online, and work for all the promises to come true. Coreweave is already in a bit of a picklye, I feel like they are the first domino. /not an investing/finance/anything to do with money expert.

Coreweave’s price has been sliding since June. Odd for a bubble to behave like this.

"How did you go bankrupt?" Bill asked.

"Two ways," Mike said. "Gradually and then suddenly."

-- Ernest Hemingway

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#137
post #81

Not a big fan of the circular observation. It's not the gotcha people seem to think. If the baker sells bread to the butcher, and the butcher sells meat to the baker then they can still both go to bed with a belly full of sandwich (aka actual utility & substance). Adding a third party to make it look more circle-y doesn't change that logic. Round trip financing is mostly an issue if it is artificial (e.g. a circle of…

That's the wrong analogy, because the butcher is giving money to the baker for the bread. If we we fix the analogy, then the baker gives money to the butcher so that he buys their bread with that money . The butcher cannot afford the bread without it!

>so that he buys their bread with that money.

So basically like any business out there reliant on incoming cash to pay suppliers?

This doesn't magically create money any more than the rest of the economy...which has believe it or not CIRCULATING money

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#138
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are taken into account. Potential profitability is taken into account with growth companies. Circular funding has no effect on that. With unprofitable companies case is made on how risky the company is and what the potential profit will be in the future.

I would disagree, at least in the short term. Exhibit A: AMD's stock rose 36% at the announcement of their OpenAI circular deal. If 1+1 = 3 and there is potential profit to be gleaned from such a deal, then it isn't circular, and is just plain good business. But the fact that AMD's stock collapsed back to where it was shortly after suggests otherwise

This isn't to do with this being circular. It is moreso that AMD is thought to be falling behind in AI race, but OpenAI doing a deal with them is a strong indicator that they might have potential to come back.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#139
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does amuse me when you have great, clean writing in some parts of a post, but then you have a sentence like > As we head into 2026, when looking at Nvidia, openai and Oracle dynamics, it looks like they are squeezing each other balls. Yeah I don't think there's a snowball's chance in heck that an LLM wrote that one, lol. My best guess is that the author combed over some of their prose with an LLM, but not all.

On the contrary, recently I encountered many cases where ChatGPT randomly switched to a very familiar style for a few sentences. It has a strong Reddit vibe when it does it, which I guess is not surprising.

I've seen this happen when AI is asked to spot fix a single sentence in the middle of an essay and it fails to maintain the style of the rest of the writing.

Re: NVIDIA frenemy relation with OpenAI and Oracle

#140
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does amuse me when you have great, clean writing in some parts of a post, but then you have a sentence like > As we head into 2026, when looking at Nvidia, openai and Oracle dynamics, it looks like they are squeezing each other balls. Yeah I don't think there's a snowball's chance in heck that an LLM wrote that one, lol. My best guess is that the author combed over some of their prose with an LLM, but not all.

On the contrary, recently I encountered many cases where ChatGPT randomly switched to a very familiar style for a few sentences. It has a strong Reddit vibe when it does it, which I guess is not surprising.

It usually doesn’t introduce grammatical mistakes at the same time though.
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