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Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

bbc.com

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Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#351

Post by hkpack »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #190
hkpack wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad that you are thinking so much about Ukrainians. Don't forget that hundreds of thousands of russians are rotting in ditches as of now. Save some pity for them too.

Most of Europe stopped letting Russian conscription refugees cross the border. I'm not Russian either.

There is no such thing as russian conscription refugees - all of the invading army consists of military contractors now.

It was a brief period in 2022 where russia was forced to conscript to save itself from total loss.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#352

Post by sunshine-o »

_bernd wrote: post #286
sunshine-o wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to get an idea of what a war situation would do to a society like Germany just remember Covid. A battle between humanity and a virus deeply deeply divided our society. If I remember correctly Germany or Austria were ready to put non vaccinated people in jails. About every lines of division deepens.

> If I remember correctly Germany or Austria were ready to put non vaccinated people in jails. Citation needed! I'm from Germany and followed the COVID rules real close. Please do not talk shit.

Sure https://www.fwp.at/en/news/blog/austrias-covid-vaccine-manda...

> In Austria, people are to be obliged to be vaccinated against the Coronavirus from 1 February 2022. This measure includes a mandatory booster vaccination for people who have already been vaccinated. Compulsory vaccination is nothing new in Austria, as the Federal Act on Smallpox Vaccination of 30 June 1948 was accompanied by a measure that sanctioned non-compliance with vaccination with an administrative fine. Administrative penalties are also foreseen with regard to the Corona-Vaccination obligation 2022. Fines of up to EUR 3.600,-- are foreseen for vaccination refusers and up to EUR 1.450,-- for people who do not attend a booster vaccination. Furthermore, vaccination refusers face prison sentences of up to four weeks if they do not comply with the new Federal Law.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#353

Post by monerozcash »

lenkite wrote: post #347
monerozcash wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll repeat myself: Can you actually find a source for your original claim about Russia using the incredibly costly S-400 platform to shoot down thousands of cheap Ukrainian drones? Russia has much cheaper systems better suited for that task, so it'd be really interesting to hear more about this. Relitigating the India-Pakistan conflict with someone who seems to have deeply held nationalist beliefs is just not all th…

> Credible source? Someone who doesn't have a documented track record of repeatedly reporting false rumors as facts would be a nice start. That depends on what you personally take as rumors vs facts. No doubt you would take all Indian/Russian media reporting the S-400 used in drone slaying as rumors. If you wish actual video evidence, it is extremely difficult as obviously the S-400 was only one component of an air d…

So I spent a few minutes looking at the two Indian medias you linked, both of them are pretty consistently pushing obviously fake stories.

Pakistani air force pilot captured during operation Sindoor: https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/pakistani-air-force...

No Indian aircraft lost in operation Sindoor: https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/rafale-jets-hit-nin...

Pakistan did not shoot down a single Indian jet: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/no-degree-of-drama...

Pakistani C130-J shot down during operation Sindoor: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/new-updates/iaf-mi...

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#354

Post by jijijijij »

Amezarak wrote: post #343
jijijijij wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way you attract people into a field despite poor management and working conditions is higher wages. People don't want to work in these conditions tho. And the public has to pay these wages. Seriously, you are so damn ignorant thinking American free-market bla bla is the fix for everything. It's probably tough to swallow, but quality of life matters here. Why aren't you paying your field and gastronomy workers 1…

> It's a democracy, the root issue can be fixed politically. But it’s not. That’s why we’re having this discussion. And whether you want to have a free market or not, the labor market is still driven by money. People will go into fields that pay more money. People will go into fields that pay more money, even if conditions are bad. Yoy seem to think I’m a free markets guy - economically in most respects it’s fair to…

> According the the US census data, median income in the US is 81k.

That's household income.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#355

Post by figbig »

mystraline wrote: post #301
ImJamal wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he is saying nobody on the left is complaining about how it is mandatory for men, but voluntary for women making it a sexist policy. People might be complaining about it is happening overall, but not about the sexist part.

Every leftist org ive interacted with places cis-males basically lower status than anyone else. Ive even had that used around me as a slur, almost like they dont really understand. Attacking people just because they are cis- and AMAB (assigned male as birth) isn't bad. Its your actions that determine good or bad. And, throwing men into a potential meat grinder of war is unethical. Frankly, it should all be actual vol…

Seems to be that whether it's mandatory or voluntary is based on one's sex, not on any sort of identity.

Which makes sense otherwise a lot of males would be able to opt out by claiming that they are women in their minds or souls or in enactment of gendered stereotypes or whatever it could possibly mean to identify as the opposite sex.

Men are the ones used as cannon fodder mostly because from a reproductive point of view they are more disposable. They also tend to be physically stronger so are more suited to many combat roles that require raw strength.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#356

Post by lenkite »

lenkite wrote: post #347
monerozcash wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll repeat myself: Can you actually find a source for your original claim about Russia using the incredibly costly S-400 platform to shoot down thousands of cheap Ukrainian drones? Russia has much cheaper systems better suited for that task, so it'd be really interesting to hear more about this. Relitigating the India-Pakistan conflict with someone who seems to have deeply held nationalist beliefs is just not all th…

> Credible source? Someone who doesn't have a documented track record of repeatedly reporting false rumors as facts would be a nice start. That depends on what you personally take as rumors vs facts. No doubt you would take all Indian/Russian media reporting the S-400 used in drone slaying as rumors. If you wish actual video evidence, it is extremely difficult as obviously the S-400 was only one component of an air d…

(delayed due to rate limit)

> But you're shifting the goalposts again..

Not really - S-400 efficacy in Operation Sindoor was in my original post too. You questioned that and hence the digression. Your goalposts changed into other utterly unrelated statements made by analysts you don't believe and media you don't believe. (I did not respond to those, because it would completely sidetrack the topic and anyways one of your claims is wrong). Please direct the "moving goalposts" accusation to yourself.

Please note that ria.ru and tass.com has many, many articles regarding shooting down drone swarms, but only mention S-400 as again a component of an overall defense system, so that won't convince you.

Here is a Russian source on specifically only the S-400 being used to shoot down a Ukrainian drone:

S-400 "Triumph" used to shoot down drone. https://www.gazeta.ru/social/2024/01/31/18205855.shtml

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#357

Post by Amezarak »

jijijijij wrote: post #354
Amezarak wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a democracy, the root issue can be fixed politically. But it’s not. That’s why we’re having this discussion. And whether you want to have a free market or not, the labor market is still driven by money. People will go into fields that pay more money. People will go into fields that pay more money, even if conditions are bad. Yoy seem to think I’m a free markets guy - economically in most respects it’s fair to…

> According the the US census data, median income in the US is 81k. That's household income. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...

Yes, that was sloppy of me. The Census website doesn’t display well on mobile, but I should have recognize the number was too high.

Nevertheless, the article you’re citing still cites American personal income as pretty close to German median income. Subtract taxes and/or adjust for PPP and…

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#358

Post by dzhiurgis »

jijijijij wrote: post #331
dzhiurgis wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Source for this? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_f%C3%BCr_Deutschla... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petr_Bystron There is plenty of news coverage. > Is Merkle part of AfD since she shat on Poland and Baltics 2 months ago? You mean Merkel? No, she is not part of the AfD. She also isn't part of the government anymore and her political influence since 2021, in particular 2 months ago, is basically zero. Did…

Latest source says probed and accused, but haven’t been proven. Not that I wanna defend them or Russia, but they do operate psyops on both sides.

Of course she couldn’t say what she means while she was in politics, that would be suicidal. Merkel kept buying Russian gas for decades, German money indirectly responsible for killing thousands if not millions of Ukrainians…

And then there’s Shroder literally working for Gazprom - https://www.ft.com/content/f6814055-26ac-4a48-8dff-c295a1a1b...

https://www.ft.com/content/366fad8a-d680-4b11-b7dd-ebe28fe04...

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#359

Post by belorn »

jijijijij wrote: post #220
sunshine-o wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the military and war is like putting a society in a pressure cooker. Nothing good comes out of it. We have been told in most stories that this is a time when people come together and stand up but this is really propaganda. The reality is most people go a little bit crazy and paranoid in these situation. Understandably. For example, friendly fires have always been very much under reported. Can you imagine what…

Dude, it's kids. Their mind isn't set in stone, their opinions aren't very founded. Basic military service also includes ethical/political education. People are not getting packed into trenches yet, it's not prison. If anything, this is going to help tensions in society. They will share rooms, showers, dirt and sweat. We're all the same. Nothing has been shown more effective at tearing down prejudices than actual exp…

> Nothing has been shown more effective at tearing down prejudices than actual exposure and confrontation.

The result has been fairly inconclusive. What happen is that people generally keep their views about in-groups and out-groups, but then add exception for the person they get exposed to. A good experience/friendship do not translate to a change in definitions for the in-group, nor does it change existing negative generalizations of the out-group.

What has shown to be effective is demonstration of shared values by the out-group, while at the same time avoiding display of different values. When people share the same values, and more importantly, do not display a difference in values, then the in-group can be expanded.

If I remember right, the book Behave by Robert Sapolsky goes through this.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#360

Post by sunshine-o »

jijijijij wrote: post #276
sunshine-o wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to get an idea of what a war situation would do to a society like Germany just remember Covid. A battle between humanity and a virus deeply deeply divided our society. If I remember correctly Germany or Austria were ready to put non vaccinated people in jails. About every lines of division deepens.

The topic isn't a "war situation" tho, but the forming of an army as deterrent. I think you are arguing in bad faith. Otherwise you would have recognized Covid isolation has been the opposite of contact interventions. Oh and of course this: > If I remember correctly Germany or Austria were ready to put non vaccinated people in jails. You remember wrong, non vaccinated people actually got publicly sodomized by general…

No need to get obscene. I do remember correctly it was indeed Austria.

Here is the explanation from a big law firm https://www.fwp.at/en/news/blog/austrias-covid-vaccine-manda...

(not the news)

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