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Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

bbc.com

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Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#211

Post by aleph_minus_one »

flohofwoe wrote: post #206
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the much bigger issue is that the older generation (those who, say, turned 18 in the 70s) told the younger generation lots of really nasty stories about the cruel trials people had to endure who wanted to do alternative national service (Zivildienst) instead of military service. These formed the value system of many people in at least two generations ("Soldaten sind Mörder" [soldiers are murders]). EDIT: If y…

> about the cruel trials people had to endure who wanted to do alternative national service Tbf, at least in West Germany people had a choice. In East Germany you ended up as 'Bausoldat': https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bausoldat , and you could forget about any 'carreer opportunities' for the rest of your life. And as former East German who then went the 'Kriegsdienstverweigerer' path in unified Germany during the 90'…

> And as former East German who then went the 'Kriegsdienstverweigerer' path in unified Germany during the 90's I cannot complain about any discrimination or incorrect behaviour, all communication was perfectly correct and respectful and I didn't even have to show up anywhere in person

In the 90s, the situation was already very different - doing alternative national service (Zivildienst) instead of compulsory military service got a lot easier (possible exception of which I heard: you were very athletic - it was rumored that then they still made it much more inconvenient to refuse to do military service).

For good reasons, my references were from older generations - the trauma that they had to endure if they wanted do alternative national service (Zivildienst) instead of compulsory military service exactly did lead to the situation that it got much easier in the 90s to do alternative national service instead.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#212

Post by c0balt »

throwaway2027 wrote: post #7
throw310822 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do they have to fill it in and return it just to say no? Could this be used against them at some time in the future? And why women instead can just ignore it? Usually HN is very wary of the consequences of the state collecting data about its citizens and restricting freedoms in small steps. Is it not the case now?

When push comes to shove, men and women aren't equal

to add to this, under German law they very much are different in regards to mandatory military service. Neither the old nor the new laws contain mandatory military service for women leading to mandatory conscription being only an issue for men.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#213

Post by hkpack »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #200
hkpack wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see, millions are already killed in the biggest war in Europe since WW2 and it looks like this is just the prelude. Russia is threatening to fight Europe as of yesterday, continue to increase weapon production and militarisation. It is obvious that it just cannot stop as its economy and social order is switching more and more to the war-time. China backs russia up and officially declaring that it cannot allow Rus…

You misunderstand. I'm not against reporting about Russia. The oversimplification of reducing everything down to "Putin this, Putin that" is my issue. Imagine me saying everything the EU is doing is explicitly because of Ursel. It's stupid, ignorant and reminds me of Trump Derangement Syndrome which had a similar effect on reporting about US issues. I live in Germany so I'm fucked either way. I'm also aware of NATO e…

> You think Russia will attack Europe, I think the West is keen on fighting a war against Russia.

And the way it was keen on fighting a war is (check notes) _increase economic ties to the point that the whole of Germany's economic growth was dependent on Russian' gas_? Or to reduce military spending year over the year? Or to stop conscription in all countries?

It is completely a wild take for me to hear that the west was keen to fight a war with nuclear power by the means of reducing its fighting abilities to almost zero while the other side militarises? Am I having some crazy dream?

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#214

Post by jijijijij »

sunshine-o wrote: post #131
nicbou wrote: post #28

To offer a bit of context, the same government just voted to raise current pensions at the expense of steep taxation hikes for current workers, made massive cuts to social services, and is now discussing military service. This generation is rightfully feeling like they're getting a sore deal.

Yes and the question is who does the German state really target to enroll in their "new" army. Because "This generation" has a lot of clearly distinct groups. So it could be: - the native young population who are now flocking in the AfD - the people fighting the AfD in the street - the second generation immigrants born there - the very recent immigrants - a mix of all Because the alchemy of creating a working army an…

Lol, that's not an exhaustive characterization of "this generation". Most people are in neither group.

Also, the AfD folks would be rather fighting for Russia, the leftist activists will conscientiously object, and recent immigrants are not allowed to serve. Very weird to mention "second gen immigrants", as if ethnostate-ish racial tension is a wider issue in Germany and they are not normal citizens. I see no difference to children of Turkish migrants serving in the past. Do you realize Germany had mandatory military service before?

> A mix of all will end up obviously in a disaster but selecting on any group will end up in a civil war or coup.

Obviously! Jeez...

Btw. historically, after WWII, one of the reasons to have mandatory military service for every man was specifically to get a diverse army, as a cross-section of society, instead of clusters of certain dispositions, so the Bundeswehr exactly won't become an ideological, political force. Conscientious objection is a legal right for every soldier, at any moment, because of it. The constitution also prevents any sort of "group selection". A homogenized army is much more dangerous to the democratic order, than a diverse one. People thought of this before...

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#215

Post by wtcactus »

“The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women.”

This is highly misandrist. I can’t believe that we are in 2025 and a - so called - democratic government is still denying women the opportunity to potentially go and die miserably in the front lines on equal footing with men.

We can surely do better. Women and girls deserve more.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#216

Post by hkpack »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #203
hkpack wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see, millions are already killed in the biggest war in Europe since WW2 and it looks like this is just the prelude. Russia is threatening to fight Europe as of yesterday, continue to increase weapon production and militarisation. It is obvious that it just cannot stop as its economy and social order is switching more and more to the war-time. China backs russia up and officially declaring that it cannot allow Rus…

Also what about that "millions" number? Where did that come from? I can barely find any mentions of numbers exceeding 500.000 people being killed thus far.

Sorry, I meant killed and injured. I don't keep up with the numbers, but few years ago it was at least around half a million from both sides. I extrapolated it for last few years.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#217

Post by kakacik »

throw310822 wrote: post #124
venturecruelty wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic move: make the kids struggle, then offer them a lifeline if they just put on a uniform. The GI bill is great, but you shouldn't have to step on an IED to go to college.

[flagged]

> Europa wants to go to war against Russia's hypersonic missiles.

Not true, Europe (as in EU or Schengen or similar group) wants to be left alone by some hyper aggressive undeveloped dictatorship in the east with massive inferiority complex. But if we keep hearing every week how we will be annihilated in nuclear holocaust or just murdered in millions in conventional warfare, at one point you stop ignoring a mad dog barking at our door.

We wanted peaceful mutually beneficial economical cooperation but Ukraine's huge gas&oil fields in the east plus all the heavy industry from soviet era also there was I guess too much to ignore for them, greed is always a strong emotion. Lets not forget who started the war in 2014 and massively escalated in 2022 in their brilliant 3-day 'special operation'.

But its fine I guess, russian incompetence created the strongest army in Europe since WWII, extremely motivated personnel literally defending their homes and loved ones from mass murder, theft, subjugation and erasure of identity (all this is provably happening on conquered territories so there is 0 room for doubts). They will bleed dry their economy and military there and real problems and misery for russia will start then. Self-harm in front of whole world, no tear will be shed for what was once pretty advanced society (at least compared to now, comparison with say US was always rather to be avoided due to inevitable hurt feelings and egos).

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#218

Post by mzhaase »

venturecruelty wrote: post #37
appreciatorBus wrote: post #17

> "We don't want to spend half a year of our lives locked up in barracks, being trained in drill and obedience and learning to kill," the organisers of the protests wrote in a statement posted on social media. "War offers no prospects for the future and destroys our livelihoods." Is the idea that it’s better for your livelihood to just start learning how speak Russian now?

I think a lot of young people look at all of the wars waged post-WWII and are rightfully opposed to fighting for their governments. Would you want to die for nothing in Vietnam? Probably not, and a lot of other people didn't want to as well. Some of them did anyway, and it was all for nothing. So please have some grace if today's kids have looked back at our miserable history and have decided that they'd rather not d…

Germany already had mandatory conscription for a long time and not once were conscripts send abroad.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#219

Post by [deleted] »

nicbou wrote: post #151
sunshine-o wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and the question is who does the German state really target to enroll in their "new" army. Because "This generation" has a lot of clearly distinct groups. So it could be: - the native young population who are now flocking in the AfD - the people fighting the AfD in the street - the second generation immigrants born there - the very recent immigrants - a mix of all Because the alchemy of creating a working army an…

I'm in the "recent" immigrants group. I qualify for citizenship since a few years, but this Wehrpflicht nonsense is why I haven't sent my application yet. I don't think that the social situation is as bad as you describe. I just think that people generally don't feel keen to put their life on the line for Germany.

[deleted]

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#220

Post by jijijijij »

sunshine-o wrote: post #180
flohofwoe wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mix of all will end up obviously in a disaster Why would an army that directly mirrors the civil society be a bad thing?

Because the military and war is like putting a society in a pressure cooker. Nothing good comes out of it. We have been told in most stories that this is a time when people come together and stand up but this is really propaganda. The reality is most people go a little bit crazy and paranoid in these situation. Understandably. For example, friendly fires have always been very much under reported. Can you imagine what…

Dude, it's kids. Their mind isn't set in stone, their opinions aren't very founded. Basic military service also includes ethical/political education. People are not getting packed into trenches yet, it's not prison. If anything, this is going to help tensions in society. They will share rooms, showers, dirt and sweat. We're all the same. Nothing has been shown more effective at tearing down prejudices than actual exposure and confrontation.
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