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Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

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Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#251

Post by brendoelfrendo »

hparadiz wrote: post #221
Kuinox wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are functionally equivalent for the player. The problem with player hosted servers is that it was very hard to get a fair and balanced competitive match, where now it's extremely common with matchmaking on servers hosted by the game company.

Back then at least you could do something about it. Now if there's an obvious cheater you just kinda sit there and take your L, and ask people to make reports.

If you were playing on a server you owned or for which you had ban permissions, you could do something about it. Otherwise, you had to hope that an admin was online to ban the cheater. If no one was around to take action, your option was to... sit there, take your L, and ask people to make reports (to the admins). You had the option to hop around between servers until you found one that didn't have cheaters, but is that all that different from just quitting back to matchmaking and hoping you find a match without cheaters?

Edit to add: I'm not disputing that kernel-level anticheat is bad; I agree that it is. I don't think it helps to try and hearken back to a golden age of PC gaming that didn't really exist. Maybe it was easier for server admins to manage because player populations were smaller back then, but that's about all that would have made things "better."

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#252

Post by vablings »

squigz wrote: post #194
Quimoniz wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you aren't breaking any laws of physics, you are just able to make much better tactical decisions. With respect I'd like to disagree on this subtly. A lot of games have the client send their cursor position at relatively frequent updates/packages (i.e. sub-second). So the server knows pretty precisely in which direction and to which object a player is looking. This in turn can be readily used upon when using wal…

You very, very quickly learn not to look like you use wall-hacks.

The biggest heuristic is that you suddenly get much more consistent. Valorant uses this to ramp up how intrusive its kernel anticheat becomes and often forcing you to turn on more intrusive features to continue playing the game

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#253

Post by RestartKernel »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #230
limagnolia wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A PS5 is an even more locked down system! There are vastly more games, many I already own, that work on Linux.

I don't personally have a problem with a system being locked down in general. I have a problem with my computer being locked down, or getting rootkits installed on it. So for me at least, playing those games on console is a good solution.

That's the seperation of concerns that drives me to a Switch alongside my computer. Though I'm by no means a "serious" gamer by most people's standards.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#254

Post by iknowstuff »

jszymborski wrote: post #244
999900000999 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is I still need Windows for music production. Linux will never compete here.

They said this about gaming too... all it takes is Valve-esque sponsor

It takes a stable ABI and a single target for apps. Don’t expect music production to ever show up for gnu/linux. Maybe Android

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#255

Post by kipchak »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #234
999900000999 wrote: post #119

I'm ordering a new laptop to work on LLM stuff, and while I thought about jumping through the hoops to get Linux running with secure boot... I had a realization, it's a cold day in hell when someone else is going to tell me what I can run on my computer. All the latest multiplayer games are now requiring secure boot on Win11 as well I'm actually wary of all these anti-cheats, they're literally hyperinvasive maleware.…

What irritates me is when games that don't even benefit from anti-cheat require it. Helldivers 2, for example. My dudes, it's a co-op game. My teammates and I are all on the same side! Moreover, the vast majority of people are gonna play with their friends, not randoms. And if your friend is using a cheat and it bothers you, you just ask him to stop. There's no reason for a game like Helldivers 2 to require anti-chea…

Helldivers might have more to do with preventing people from easily farming super credits versus game integrity.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#256

Post by iknowstuff »

LanceH wrote: post #156
SirMaster wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you stop a client-side wallhack with server side anti-cheat?

run your own servers, an admin watches them track people behind walls, player gets banned, move on. Oh, they took away player run servers...

Not scalable

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#257

Post by hamdingers »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #251
hparadiz wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back then at least you could do something about it. Now if there's an obvious cheater you just kinda sit there and take your L, and ask people to make reports.

If you were playing on a server you owned or for which you had ban permissions, you could do something about it. Otherwise, you had to hope that an admin was online to ban the cheater. If no one was around to take action, your option was to... sit there, take your L, and ask people to make reports (to the admins). You had the option to hop around between servers until you found one that didn't have cheaters, but is t…

You were not helpless if the admin wasn't on, votekick has existed for 25+ years.

Believe it or not us old folks who played during this time had ways to address these issues.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#258

Post by t-writescode »

LMYahooTFY wrote: post #235
LanceH wrote: post #151

Amongst the discussion of rootkits and anti-cheat, I would like to add that part of the reason it is necessary is caused by the game companies that took away the standard method of playing multiplayer -- players running their own servers. It used to be pretty easy to just ban people from playing, now we're 100% reliant on their ability to do it. So we have anti-cheat which roots our computer, and still doesn't 100% s…

This isn't the reason. The reason it's necessary is because players want to be able to play with/against other players around the world. Matchmaking requires some form of anti-cheat. Running your own server as admin can't give you the degree of competitive global ranking that players enjoy today. And cheating is an arms race. It's just hacking. You either preserve game integrity or you're going to have cheaters.

How did it work in the early Steam (CS 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, CS:S) and GameSpy days?

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#259

Post by isk517 »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #234
999900000999 wrote: post #119

I'm ordering a new laptop to work on LLM stuff, and while I thought about jumping through the hoops to get Linux running with secure boot... I had a realization, it's a cold day in hell when someone else is going to tell me what I can run on my computer. All the latest multiplayer games are now requiring secure boot on Win11 as well I'm actually wary of all these anti-cheats, they're literally hyperinvasive maleware.…

What irritates me is when games that don't even benefit from anti-cheat require it. Helldivers 2, for example. My dudes, it's a co-op game. My teammates and I are all on the same side! Moreover, the vast majority of people are gonna play with their friends, not randoms. And if your friend is using a cheat and it bothers you, you just ask him to stop. There's no reason for a game like Helldivers 2 to require anti-chea…

Elden Ring: Nightreign is also a co-op PvE game that has anti-cheating in it. The most common way people cheat is by fudging then items equipped to their character that slightly alter their stats and abilities. Since the game is rouge-like and all of your character information and equipment you can assign before entering the game is handled locally then all it takes is editing your save file which the game and server have no way of (or makes no effort to) detect.

Also, after a brief period, all of the cheaters disappeared because just repeatedly winning a PvE game get boring.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#260

Post by lwansbrough »

kamranjon wrote: post #145

At this point - you would think that cheaters could be detected on the server side by either training a model to flag abnormal behavior or do some type of statistics on the movement patterns over time - is a client-side anti-cheat really required?

What you’ll find is that a subset of players define a behaviour and now you have to prove that that behaviour is cheating. For most behaviours that could be cheating, it will overlap with skilled players.

Examples would be pre-aiming corners and >99th percentile reaction time.

You need a false positive rate well below 1%.

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