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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#401

Post by qweqweqwe12 »

jswelker wrote: post #215
hc12345 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the world has severed the two. A lot of what you'd consider key parts of the university experience just doesn't exist in most of Europe or the highly developed parts of Asia. In practice, it's attaching job training to a very, very expensive resort, regardless of who is paying for it. It's pretty nice, in the very same sense that spending 4 years in a beach resort ls also great, but one needs to be absurdly w…

The F1 issue is absolutely real. Foreign students have been the secret sauce in keeping prices lower for US students for a long time now. Trump 1 and now Trump 2 presidencies have created financial crises at most universities just by making vague anti immigration gestures without even materially changing student visas. Presidents and provosts routinely make desperate oversea sales pitches to try to gin up the pipelin…

> Trump 1 and now Trump 2 presidencies have created financial crises at most universities

Worst financial crisis at any university was probably caused by himself at his own scam Trump University, long before he become president.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#402

Post by viccis »

baiwl wrote: post #360
viccis wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nothing the government provides is free. Yes it is. "Free" doesn't mean "has no cost paid by anyone" and never has in these discussions. It means "at no cost to the student". Apologies if English isn't your first language.

…but there is cost to the student or their family. The difference being that paying for it or not is not an option. You can’t just say “I won’t go to uni, so I won’t pay for it”

By this definition, nothing is "free"; there is always some cost, whether financial or otherwise. It's an absurd bit of pedantry that does nothing but derail discussion. Free tuition is free at the point of sale to the student, just like the interstate I drive on sometimes is free to use as compared to the toll roads, even though my taxes paid for both. It's not complicated terminology.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#403

Post by overfeed »

lurk2 wrote: post #383
overfeed wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The inheritors and descendants of those that directly created the problem are screaming at the colleges as the problem Not to mention rank-and-file American conservatives who see universities as bastions of liberal thought/power, and create threadbare, post-hoc arguments as to why universities have to be dismantled or politically reeducated when partisanship has to be disguised.

> when partisanship has to be disguised. The conservatives are right about the partisan bias of universities. See this survey by Mitchell Langbert. https://www.nas.org/academic-questions/31/2/homogenous_the_p... Anthropology and communications saw no registered Republicans. English, Sociology, and Art departments had a ratio of around 40:1 Democrat professors Republican professors, whereas in technical fields the rat…

> The conservatives are right about the partisan bias of universities

Yes - and? Police forces and catholic churches skew conservative, but I figure it's an emergent property based on the self-selected group who join the respective organizations plus some exposure to new ideas.

You seem like you expect political "neutrality", but if you look at at any institution, you'll find "bias": theatre fook, country music, poets, small Business owners, baristas , farmers, CxOs, software engineers tend to lean one way or another on average. The battle is not to establish political neutrality everywhere, but selective against universities because the staff & students leans left. I'm yet to hear conservatives complain about the political bias in the Fraternal Order of Police or the FBI.

Looking at history, every nascent autocracy takes aim at independent intellectuals, like clockwork. First to be neutralized is the opposition, then the press, then the intellectuals in higher education.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#404

Post by terminalshort »

jswelker wrote: post #98
rahimnathwani wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many (most?) people go to college primarily for the piece of paper, not for the educational and social experience.

And resultingly, if you do go to college and immerse yourself in the educational experience, you come out with superpowers compared to your peers. Getting companies to see those superpowers in a hiring pipeline of course is a different story

I partied my way through an easy major with nothing to do with my job. The people who didn't have no "superpowers" that I don't. The degree is a bunch of status signalling bullshit.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#405

Post by plastic3169 »

roenxi wrote: post #307
monero-xmr wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but if the US truly has the best military (and it does 100x) then when push comes to shove, the US will destroy anyone who tries to undermine it. Very dangerous game to oppose it. Being able to construct things quickly is important, but if the US can militarily seize nearly every country on earth in days, the power is not necessarily where the kit is located

The US military isn't that scary; the evidence to date is that it's ability to destroy counties ends somewhere around Iran's strength. The modelling I've seen is that any US-China war will take place in Asia and China will probably win it unless the US gets a lot of help (always possible). And the US has already been undermined by the likes of China, Russia and India and there isn't a lot they can do about it in the…

Could China attack US? Why would US try to attack China in asia? Not an expert but that feels like losing proposition. I think people confuse proxy wars with wars. US is under no threat of being actually attacked.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#406

Post by curcbit »

crossbody wrote: post #51
Aeolun wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost too. Nearly all of Europe does, I believe.

Did Europe find a cheat code that gets free $$$ for education? Nothing is free - once you graduate you are hit with 50% tax that gets back all you "free" tuition costs many, many times over. Not saying education should not be subsidized via taxes (I think it's good overall), but it's not free at all - the price is just hidden and spread out over many years (similar to student loans but less visible).

> once you graduate you are hit with 50% tax that gets back all you "free" tuition costs many, many times over.

This is plain false.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#407

Post by baq »

satvikpendem wrote: post #81
jaccola wrote: post #7

I feel the same fallacies happen with money and degrees: - People with more money live better lives, so let's just print/hand out money and everyone will live a better life! - People with college degrees live better lives, so let's just push more people through college and everyone will live better lives! In both cases, of course, completely missing the underlying reasons money/college degrees provide(d) better lives…

It's a prime example of the tragedy of the commons and there's honestly not much that can be done because of how competition on the supply side of the labor market works; for employers, a degree is no longer a differentiator among candidates.

It isn’t in that it doesn’t guarantee a job, but not having one all but guarantees HR drones will discard your CV algorithmically.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#408

Post by hnhg »

petesergeant wrote: post #284
pclmulqdq wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American colleges give out a GPA, which used to mean something but has now been inflated to the point of meaninglessness. 60% of my college class 10 years ago had a 3.5/4 or higher. The median grade at Harvard is an A. I am told that since COVID, B grades and below now require a written explanation by the professor at several schools.

> The median grade at Harvard is an A It’s been 20 years or so since my knowledge was up-to-date, but Oxbridge undergrads used to bitterly complain that their 2:2 (grade C I guess?) wasn’t seen as equivalent to getting a 1st(A?) or 2:1(B) from other good UK unis by graduate schemes and large employers. Oxbridge workload seemed to be significantly higher for most undergrad degrees than it was at other unis, and the fe…

I've worked a lot with Oxbridge and Ivy League folks and there is nothing particularly special about them. An Oxbridge degrees bestows an out-of-the-box premium personal brand, as you've demonstrated, as well as the social network, but not superior ability, in my experience

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#409

Post by baq »

anonym29 wrote: post #205

There is nothing a college can teach you that you cannot learn for free online. The social environment can be replicated for free. You're not paying six figures for an education, you're paying six figures for exactly two things: 1. Someone to write lesson plans for you 2. A piece of paper that tells the world you are capable of conforming with the sometimes-frustrating impositions of an institution for 4 years withou…

> There is nothing a college can teach you that you cannot learn for free online.

This is trivially false outside of some math, CS and sweng. Even within IT learning networking at an above basic level requires a well equipped lab.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#410

Post by [deleted] »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #375
apparent wrote: post #288

The downward "is it worth it" trend over the last 12 years is partly due to the continued upward climb of college tuition. Some schools are now at $100,000/yr for tuition, room, and board. In order for this to be "worth the cost" they would have to have a strongly positive expected value in terms of future earnings. And a positive EV isn't sufficient. It would also need to have a very low chance of negative EV. Other…

There's a simple and effective escape hatch: study abroad. Europe, Australia, South America, Canada even. Some countries are more affordable than others but the most expensive (by far) option is staying in the US. From the point of view of developing your brain, leaving your country is a free education in itself. There is also the effect of embedding yourself in a network of expats made up of the best and brightest f…

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