Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#371

Post by hfsdhkdshksdhk » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:30 AM UTC

jswelker wrote: post #102

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

Funnily enough there is a parasitic vine in Australian rain forests that kills its host and then thrives.

It grows completely around the tree and creates its own trunk on the outside. The tree underneath eventually cannot get any nutrients in its sap and dies. The vine then feeds on the tree as it rots away on the inside.

Eventually you have a hollow tree.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#372

Post by baiwl » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:30 AM UTC

stack_framer wrote: post #363

lapcat wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing this story. You seriously dropped out because you didn't like one class? That doesn't seem to show much fortitude. Which university, which year was this, what was your major, and what happened with your education and/or career after you dropped out? And what precisely do you mean by "castigated," in your specific case?

> You seriously dropped out because you didn't like one class? No. The university added other "studies" courses to my requirements that contributed to my decision. After taking gender studies, I knew I could not tolerate the other "studies" courses the university was suddenly demanding—which were not required when I first started. > Which university The University of Utah > which year was this 2014 > what was your ma…

I don’t understand this thing you do in the US of forcing you to do completely unrelated courses. You want to study computers and they put you through liberal arts or gender studies bullshit that is basically worthless. Why?

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#373

Post by baiwl » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:32 AM UTC

crossbody wrote: post #69

yahway wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now do the tech industry (high paying American jobs)

Why is tech high paying exactly? Maybe low supply of qualified labor? Maybe that can be solved with qualified immigration? We can call such a program H1B, for example, and it would benefit the American economy overall at the cost of slightly reducing compensation fir the already extremely highly paying tech jobs.

Immigration is about short-changing the natives to make the billionaires wealthier, yes, we know.

People are also now learning this fact, which is why you’re getting unpalatable politicians elected.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#374

Post by fzeroracer » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:33 AM UTC

stack_framer wrote: post #115

I dropped out after my university added various "studies" courses to the required list. I took just one such course—gender studies—which was utterly abysmal. There was zero tolerance for debating ideas or considering opposing viewpoints. You either assimilated with the group think, or you were castigated for your heresy. It was indoctrination, not education.

When I see posts like this, it reminds me of when I went to community college. I was working towards an associate degree to transfer to a larger university which saved both money and allowed me to bypass some of the admission issues. One of the classes I was taking was a Gen Ed class around the philosophy of religion. I was an especially strong atheist at the time, and this class involved a well-rounded discussion and examination of religions from across the world as well as debates around our religious beliefs.

By the end of the class I had softened on my stance a bit (though still an atheist), and I saw multiple Christians get up, walk out of the class mid-lecture and never come back. Not all of them mind you, but a few of them took such great offense at the class even mentioning other religions that they left, and some really couldn't handle any sort of debate or discussion.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#375

Post by jillesvangurp » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:35 AM UTC

apparent wrote: post #288

The downward "is it worth it" trend over the last 12 years is partly due to the continued upward climb of college tuition. Some schools are now at $100,000/yr for tuition, room, and board. In order for this to be "worth the cost" they would have to have a strongly positive expected value in terms of future earnings. And a positive EV isn't sufficient. It would also need to have a very low chance of negative EV. Other…

There's a simple and effective escape hatch: study abroad. Europe, Australia, South America, Canada even. Some countries are more affordable than others but the most expensive (by far) option is staying in the US.

From the point of view of developing your brain, leaving your country is a free education in itself. There is also the effect of embedding yourself in a network of expats made up of the best and brightest from countries all over the world. That all comes on top of the education you receive. And if you are less in it for the intellectual stuff and are more into drinking and partying, college life in the US is pretty lame compared to some university towns across the world. Cheaper, wilder, better.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#376

Post by the_gipsy » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:35 AM UTC

kiba wrote: post #334

roenxi wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military isn't that scary; the evidence to date is that it's ability to destroy counties ends somewhere around Iran's strength. The modelling I've seen is that any US-China war will take place in Asia and China will probably win it unless the US gets a lot of help (always possible). And the US has already been undermined by the likes of China, Russia and India and there isn't a lot they can do about it in the…

America doesn't and shouldn't fight China or Russia alone, so I don't know why we're talking about that. Russia is basically on its way out as a military power. It can't even conquer Ukraine. As for China, you don't fight China alone. What do you think military bases in Japan are for? Anyway, for the world's sake, China shouldn't start a war, but sometime you just can't stop stupid.

America is on a isolation downward spiral.

Russia will conquer Ukraine, any other prediction at this point is absurd.

See point one, America is alone now, it will take decades to repair the damage.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#377

Post by tovej » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:35 AM UTC

seec wrote: post #308

jswelker wrote: post #102

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

At least the good part about the US situation is that people are still free to choose for themselves. The cost isn't redirected to the whole population at large via taxation. In the EU it's much worse, because the same reality is materialising, but it is still advertised as "free". Of course, this is the path to a form of soft communism and all systems are becoming dysfunctional and unable to create real value at the…

The EU is aggressively neoliberal or liberal-conservative, and that is the reason universities have begun to be more expensive. It's related to austerity, privatization, the aggressive revision of tax codes, and New Public Management.

The left has not been popular in the EU since the 70s, which is why this development has gotten increasingly aggresive in the last few decades. You cannot seriously suggest that the EU has moved left in any meaningful way. The EU commission is currently trying to implement that every new regulation can only pass once an old regulation can be removed. It's a neoliberal dream, where the amount of regulation can only go down, and public funds are allocated to private companies more and more.

This is especially true for universities, where public funding programs for research has begun to be funneled to startups instead of research groups.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#378

Post by stefs » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:36 AM UTC

danans wrote: post #263

bombcar wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our immigration policies pretty strongly indicate we still need those less educated people doing work, we just don’t want to pay anything resembling reasonable wages for such.

I agree that our system relies heavily on uneducated migrants for menial labor. However, uneducated people in the 1950s regularly got jobs in factories that paid enough for a single income to support a family. That opportunity for uneducated Americans won't come back, regardless of our immigration policies.

While it's true that it was possible to support a family on a single unskilled laborer income in the '50s, their standard of living was far below anything most people would accept today.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#379

Post by trinix912 » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:37 AM UTC

ajashdkjhasjkd wrote: post #223

jswelker wrote: post #102

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

> People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools I really wish the computer science degrees and even online courses spent like 30 mins on the history of computer science. The entire existence of this field has been dependent on those non job-training liberal arts degrees.

> I really wish the computer science degrees and even online courses spent like 30 mins on the history of computer science.

The uni I went to did, in multiple classes, to the point where you could almost predict the "war story" you were about to be told :D

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#380

Post by walthamstow » Sun, Nov 30, 2025, 9:38 AM UTC

armchairhacker wrote: post #362

kopirgan wrote: post #351

IIRC Mark Andreessen once said colleges esp ivy league ones, simplify the job of recruiters by acting as filters. Saves them the bother. So they attached lots of value. I guess that's true even now but in a perverse sort of way. As markers of indoctrination and unsuitability for productive corporate roles. Employers probably decided to avoid them. That's not fair to a large number of students but the old system of co…

Do you know any employers actively avoiding students from Ivy-league colleges? I agree that colleges have acted as filters, but the value of degrees has been deflated, even in Ivy leagues, because they’re easier and more common. I think a degree still acts as a filter though; getting a job is hard with a degree but nearly impossible without. EDIT: There’s the Thiel fellowship, which requires not having a degree, but…

I don't know about actively avoiding, but I have worked for multiple companies in London who prefer not to hire at the 'top' end of candidates (hence hiring me!), because they'll cost more and can have cultural issues like not be very fun people or thinking themselves to be above the self-taught and weird-career guys who didn't get a first from Imperial.