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The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

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Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#71

Post by dangus »

onjectic wrote: post #21
dangus wrote: post #11

The problem that UBI will never get over is the fact that it just smells like something suspicious. It smells like something capitalists can exploit. Landlords and other oligopolistic goods-sellers with a lot of leverage and cartel-like dynamics can now count on a base income for everyone. I don’t see how low income housing doesn’t instantly becomes more expensive across the board, with profits funneled to establishe…

I would say it’s meant to be exploited in the way you are describing and really just a progressive tax mechanism, but instead of hitting zero tax at zero income, you hit zero higher and can start to pay “negative tax”.

I think you’re right conceptually, I just have skepticism on whether this design is more progressive or regressive.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#72

Post by toshinoriyagi »

dangus wrote: post #22
jclulow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to all the regular kinds of shitty behaviour landlords inflict on their tenants already? I feel like "because the money people will continue to misbehave" is absolutely not a reason to avoid doing something.

UBI is unique. When I get a raise at work, my landlord doesn’t know. If you implement UBI, every landlord knows that every tenant in the whole country has $xxxx more per month to pay. Literally 100% of them will raise the rent and there won’t be anything anyone can do about it.

I don't think it is this simple. Even with UBI, there will be varying quality of rentals, with nicer ones being more expensive. If every landlord jacked up the price, demand would shift to cheaper, lower quality rentals. More people will get roommates etc, reducing demand entirely.

In addition, every seller of a good/service could do the same. They can't all increase prices to extract the full $xxxx a month. There are much more complex dynamics at play then just "landlords will raise rent enough to extract the full UBI benefit."

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#73

Post by wredcoll »

Razengan wrote: post #64
wredcoll wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A) attempting to police that is extremely, extremely expensive not to mention absolutely chockful of corruption and abuse B) repeated studies and measurements have shown that attempting to police it just doesn't do anything.

Sounds like the ”Country that tried nothing says it’s impossible” meme. > Issue special debit cards for UBI > Issue special machines/payment processors for those cards to registered merchants, landlords, and utility and healthcare providers.

We have tried that. It's cheaper and more effective to just give people a wad of cash.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#74

Post by conorcleary »

climb_stealth wrote: post #33
travisb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the participants in those pilot programs *know* they are in a time-limited pilot programs and that in a handful of years the money will dry up. This is a major flaw in all UBI studies which make them all but useless. It will take 15 or 20 years before any UBI could be considered permanent enough for a majority of people to change their work habits.

I agree and disagree with you. These studies should be done with guaranteed payments for life. Otherwise it is just not representative. I do believe that people would still work though. Personally I would like to do a useful job with real benefit to society, but the low pay makes it not feasible. I would still want to work part time at least instead of not at all.

Golden Visas on sale now...

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#75

Post by itsdrewmiller »

appreciatorBus wrote: post #13
TheCleric wrote: post #2

I think this goes to something I’ve been seeing a lot of lately. People will hold an opinion for emotional reasons instead of logical reasons, and those speaking to them will get frustrated trying to “logic” them out of it (evidence, studies, facts, etc). It doesn’t work because they came to the opinion first and veneered it with logic afterwards. If you tear down the logic, the emotional substructure is still there.…

IMO this describes the author of the article. They have an emotional discomfort with various inequities & inequalities which drive their advocacy of UBI & other measures and they aren't interested reason, arguments or logic. The guy has been obsessed with UBI since he was 15, no one is going to talk him out of it, no matter how bad the evidence is.

The article itself seems quite reasonable - why do you say the author isn’t interested in logic?

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#76

Post by throwawa14223 »

crazygringo wrote: post #7
exabrial wrote: post #3

How do I opt out of a ubi, where I can keep everything I [rightfully] earned?

You're asking how you opt out of taxes. You don't. And everything you earn isn't rightfully yours. It's supported by an infrastructure of national defense, courts, police, building regulations, and so forth. You get many years of public school for free. Etc. etc. You didn't do this solo. So the cost of all the benefits you get as a citizen is to contribute your rightful share, that share being decided democratically…

The rightful share is radically lower than it would be set democratically. Taxation above a certain point is a form of oppressive injustice.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#77

Post by m463 »

TheCleric wrote: post #2

I think this goes to something I’ve been seeing a lot of lately. People will hold an opinion for emotional reasons instead of logical reasons, and those speaking to them will get frustrated trying to “logic” them out of it (evidence, studies, facts, etc). It doesn’t work because they came to the opinion first and veneered it with logic afterwards. If you tear down the logic, the emotional substructure is still there.…

I think there are a bunch of uncomfortable gut reactions that people just "conveniently leave out" of the argument.

Stuff like "why should I pay for this", or "why should they get to be lazy while I work" or "I don't feel like I should work as hard"

So they find other arguments, in a doth-protest-too-much-other-logic-arguments way.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#78

Post by TheCleric »

omikun wrote: post #62
TheCleric wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddy I’ve seen people quit jobs over way pettier things without UBI.

But have you seen a population of people quit jobs over pettier things? The studies aren't based on just one or two individuals.

A group is a collection of individuals. Anecdotes != data and whatnot, but by my observations people don’t always make purely rational economic decisions, so if you were going to a see people quitting over UBI you’d already see it.

Of course this hypothesis is as based in reality as yours, so the only thing we can do is try and find out.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#79

Post by tim333 »

This seems a bit muddled - he seems to say UBI boosters should avoid debating "no one will work" and "we can't afford it" because then critics will ask "Did the people who got the UBI ‘work’ as much as the people who didn’t?".

I don't see why you shouldn't debate such stuff. My take is UBI wouldn't be a good idea just now for such reasons but in the future we may be able to answer that that's fine because the robots will do the work as needed.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#80

Post by tim333 »

card_zero wrote: post #61
kyleee wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is doing that

Without requiring people to seek work?

The UK system is something of a mess with perverse incentives. There is 'job seekers allowance' based on seeking work but a lot of people either work and pay taxes or go on disability which you can do by saying you are depressed and the receive income from the taxes on the working people.

The situation makes it quite hard to work if you are on disability and similar which has led the the numbers shooting up

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBrits/comments/1mxxksa/whats_dri...

If you extrapolate the graph in the link in a few decades no one will work and we'll all live by claiming benefits off each other. UBI might be better.

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