Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

thereader.mitpress.mit.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 87 posts

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#41

Post by PopAlongKid »

TheCleric wrote: post #2

I think this goes to something I’ve been seeing a lot of lately. People will hold an opinion for emotional reasons instead of logical reasons, and those speaking to them will get frustrated trying to “logic” them out of it (evidence, studies, facts, etc). It doesn’t work because they came to the opinion first and veneered it with logic afterwards. If you tear down the logic, the emotional substructure is still there.…

>something I’ve been seeing a lot of lately

It's not only recent, according to this quote from 300 years ago.

Jonathan Swift — 'It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.'

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#42

Post by nothrabannosir »

exabrial wrote: post #3

How do I opt out of a ubi, where I can keep everything I [rightfully] earned?

As impossible, as for me to opt out of your indirectly profiting from my contributions to the economy.

Society is a team effort. That’s what the elections are about.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#44

Post by rincebrain »

dangus wrote: post #22
jclulow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to all the regular kinds of shitty behaviour landlords inflict on their tenants already? I feel like "because the money people will continue to misbehave" is absolutely not a reason to avoid doing something.

UBI is unique. When I get a raise at work, my landlord doesn’t know. If you implement UBI, every landlord knows that every tenant in the whole country has $xxxx more per month to pay. Literally 100% of them will raise the rent and there won’t be anything anyone can do about it.

This is only true in places where there are more people trying to rent than places.

In theory, having more capital available in the face of a landlord raising rent an obnoxious amount will incentivize people who aren't making much to move somewhere with a lower CoL that they might not have been able to make work otherwise because of uncertainty in the amount of time they'd be out of work or their base level of money available for that time.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#45

Post by krackers »

gruez wrote: post #20
stevenalowe wrote: post #8

What happens if nobody works and how will we afford it are absolutely valid questions. A sovereign fund might answer both

>A sovereign fund might answer both Barring AGI and a swarm of drones/nanobots, you still need people to work. Money is just a unit of exchange. If everyone on earth has a billion dollars, but nobody wants to work, nobody is going to be driving around in lambos.

We will need people to work, but not everyone will have the capacity to fulfill that work, as jobs become increasingly specialized and the floor goes up

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#47

Post by jltsiren »

anonym29 wrote: post #39
Razengan wrote: post #31

How about a "pseudo UBI" that only pays for basic necessities like rent, utilities, groceries and basic healthcare? Any kind of a universal safety net would allow human civilization as a whole to chill out a bit, and could also reduce various petty scams and/or the damage they cause to people.

In 2025, the US Federal government pulled in a a grand total of $5.16 trillion in revenue. Giving all 258 million adult US citizens $1000 a month totals to $3.096 trillion per year. Giving them all $2000 a month totals to $6.192 trillion per year - more than all US tax revenue from all sources combined. Of course, we already have a $1.7 trillion deficit, with $38 trillion and counting in debt without the UBI, and I a…

Pretty much every economist who has ever thought seriously about UBI has already given an answer. Most of the funding would come from abolishing progressive income taxes. Instead, the highest (or second highest) bracket would start at 0. With the current federal tax rates and incomes, that would raise an additional ~$3 trillion/year.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#48

Post by roncesvalles »

>UBI-related experiments consistently find evidence that no participant responds to UBI experiments by dropping out of the labor force.

I'm not familiar with the details of these experiments but the first thing that strikes me is that this cannot be experimentally tested without guaranteeing participants a lifetime of UBI. They don't drop out of the labor force because they know it's temporary.

You wouldn't quit your job if you're only promised 2 years of UBI, because the cost that resigning has upon your future employability may be greater than the money from the UBI experiment. Or if you did quit, it would be to make a gambit (such as going back into schooling or training) that will leave you better off once the experiment is over.

The only reliable experiment design would be putting a few million per participant into some guaranteed annuities fund.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#49

Post by wmf »

Razengan wrote: post #31

How about a "pseudo UBI" that only pays for basic necessities like rent, utilities, groceries and basic healthcare? Any kind of a universal safety net would allow human civilization as a whole to chill out a bit, and could also reduce various petty scams and/or the damage they cause to people.

That's already what UBI is.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#50

Post by TheCleric »

roncesvalles wrote: post #48

>UBI-related experiments consistently find evidence that no participant responds to UBI experiments by dropping out of the labor force. I'm not familiar with the details of these experiments but the first thing that strikes me is that this cannot be experimentally tested without guaranteeing participants a lifetime of UBI. They don't drop out of the labor force because they know it's temporary. You wouldn't quit your…

Buddy I’ve seen people quit jobs over way pettier things without UBI.
Post reply on HN