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TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

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Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#61

Post by ErroneousBosh »

Animats wrote: post #24

This was apparently a Linde installation custom built for TSMC in Arizona.[1] Nitrogen, oxygen, and argon are extracted from air on-site and purified. That's Linde's primary business; liquefying and distilling air. This isn't some little local company or a company operating outside their area of expertise. Those gases are storeable, so it's surprising there wasn't enough tank capacity to deal with outages. The site p…

> Those gases are storeable, so it's surprising there wasn't enough tank capacity to deal with outages.

It probably depends on the duration of the outage. I'd expect they have some storage, and if they plan on having the compressor plant down for longer that that can manage they'll bring in tanks.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#62

Post by itake »

j_walter wrote: post #39
itake wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if the US workers earned OT like TW workers do, the "culture" gap would shrink.

TW workers have a majority of their compensation in bonuses, so the OT portion is quite small and many do not even bother to ask for it. The overall compensation between a TW and US engineer at TSMC is also significant. Not to mention the lowest paid hourly workers...where in TW they make 2-3X minimum wage, but in the US it's like 1.25X.

That is not what I heard from my cousin at TSMC. The OT gives the workers a “living wage”. Most of his coworkers charge OT every week of the year.

He admitted, even with their OT and bonuses, he probably makes more than them w2 salaries.

But my point still remains: if they want US (or TW) folks to work more hours, they need to pay for those hours.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#63

Post by throwaway2037 »

angelgonzales wrote: post #5

This isn’t very big news. Issues occur during bring-up often. Linde’s processes are possibly so power intensive that failing over to generator power is not possible. TSMC is right to put Linde on notice since Linde should have a PFMEA and control plan to eliminate any root causes for downtime. I suspect in the long term TSMC has plans to insource this if the issue persists. Scrap happens sometimes during manufacturin…

    > This isn’t very big news.
The opening paragraph feels a bit pearl clutching to me.

    > the company had to scrap thousands of wafers that were in production for clients at the site which include Apple, Nvidia, and AMD.
Eh. So what? I am sure scrap thousands of wafers for all kinds of other reasons. I would be better to know the cost per hour of a total plant shutdown. (Of course, I'm sure the author doesn't have this information.)

    > After all, the TSMC logo features failing parts!
Final hat tip here. I never knew that.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#64

Post by lazide »

bnjms wrote: post #52
lazide wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahaha. The work culture between TW and the US is night and day - and it isn’t flattering for the US.

How so? Are the Americans relatively lazy or just unwilling to put in tedious but necessary extended hours?

The entire approach is different. Especially with Taiwanese engineers, their entire focus is whatever work they are doing. Everything else (quite literally), their wives handle.

Americans typically ask for things like work life balance, non abusive working hours, etc. they also don’t (anymore) have the type of family life setup that allows them to actually focus so much - being pulled into child care duties, or taking care of family members, or whatever their next vacation should be, etc.

The general attitude is also more ‘yeah whatever’ to some extent.

The amount of singular obsessive engineering you get out of one vs the other is hard to compare.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#65

Post by wiredpancake »

RealityVoid wrote: post #45
jack_tripper wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an ad?

I don't think Linde™ needs an add, everyone knows Linde™ is the most reliable partner in producing and storing gases in all available purity classes. (joke off, it's probably not an add, but they were excited to share the reason you see Linde on all sorts of gas tanks all over the place. It's actually quite common and if you see it once you see it everywhere. )

I've never seen Linde ever in my life (Australia).

What is funny though, at least in the Australia and UK regions, they still use the BOC brand, which is a subsidiary under Linde.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#66

Post by j_walter »

itake wrote: post #62
j_walter wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TW workers have a majority of their compensation in bonuses, so the OT portion is quite small and many do not even bother to ask for it. The overall compensation between a TW and US engineer at TSMC is also significant. Not to mention the lowest paid hourly workers...where in TW they make 2-3X minimum wage, but in the US it's like 1.25X.

That is not what I heard from my cousin at TSMC. The OT gives the workers a “living wage”. Most of his coworkers charge OT every week of the year. He admitted, even with their OT and bonuses, he probably makes more than them w2 salaries. But my point still remains: if they want US (or TW) folks to work more hours, they need to pay for those hours.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Semiconductors/comments/18x5vr5/sem...

This reddit post captures what I've seen at TSMC in Taiwan. $120K is normal pay at the director level...engineers make $2500-5000 a month. TSMC AZ starting pay for a new college grad w/ BS is probably just under $100K/year with just salary, with the potential to make over $120K within a few years with full vested bonuses.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#67

Post by jwagenet »

lysace wrote: post #49
itake wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not that the USA can't produce semi-conductors. Its that semi-conductor production, at TSMC's scale (both in terms of number of units, yield rates, and depth) currently requires highly skilled workers to work a lot of their hours to "baby sit" the wafer production. Maybe there is a world where TSMC can hire enough skilled workers and optimize processes enabling people to go home at 5p, but that is not currently t…

Yes. This. So, yeah, essentially fundamentally incompatible with the US economy. The US is going to have to heavily subsidize the payroll of tens of thousands of very accomplished EEs/etc to make this work. By doing that they will also wreck the HW part of SV.

SV already wrecked HW engineering by paying far more for SW than market rate HW such that anyone with financial ambition made the switch long ago.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#68

Post by fy20 »

itake wrote: post #37
coredog64 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are like half a dozen semiconductor manufacturers in Phoenix that were here before TSMC arrived. There's a robust pipeline from ASU to these same manufacturers. Can we please just stop with the nonsensical notion that "Americans don't know how to fabricate semiconductors"?

its not that the USA can't produce semi-conductors. Its that semi-conductor production, at TSMC's scale (both in terms of number of units, yield rates, and depth) currently requires highly skilled workers to work a lot of their hours to "baby sit" the wafer production. Maybe there is a world where TSMC can hire enough skilled workers and optimize processes enabling people to go home at 5p, but that is not currently t…

We won't be seeing a TSMC plant in France anytime soon then.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#69

Post by agentifysh »

lazide wrote: post #64
bnjms wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Are the Americans relatively lazy or just unwilling to put in tedious but necessary extended hours?

The entire approach is different. Especially with Taiwanese engineers, their entire focus is whatever work they are doing. Everything else (quite literally), their wives handle. Americans typically ask for things like work life balance, non abusive working hours, etc. they also don’t (anymore) have the type of family life setup that allows them to actually focus so much - being pulled into child care duties, or takin…

hmmm this is interesting I was always the impression Taiwanese wives were more progressive and men had to do lot more lifting vs other regional cultures in east asia

my original thinking after reading some of the anecdotes from TSMC engineers is that they were obsessively dedicated which means extreme hours from North American culture

its also the same in places like Samsung where the company treats employers very well with perks and long career stability but its not free always requires huge sacrifice I'd imagine similar to Japanese conglomerates.

I'm not sure which is better in America its definitely transactional relationship but it also comes with stability issues relatively compared to what these East Asian giants offer but at the cost of not being able to switch if and when you find yourselves at odds.

Not sure what it was like at Nokia but also another conglomerate that ultimately folded under competition and also a country with more stringent labor/life constraints that you would find less enforced in East Asia.

Getting a bit distracted here but noting how much culture plays a role in these large companies and their management styles.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#70

Post by nutjob2 »

angelgonzales wrote: post #5

This isn’t very big news. Issues occur during bring-up often. Linde’s processes are possibly so power intensive that failing over to generator power is not possible. TSMC is right to put Linde on notice since Linde should have a PFMEA and control plan to eliminate any root causes for downtime. I suspect in the long term TSMC has plans to insource this if the issue persists. Scrap happens sometimes during manufacturin…

> After all, the TSMC logo features failing parts!

I'm not sure about that, I think the blank spaces are just parts that have been picked. The dies have been cut and the good ones are being removed.

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