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TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

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Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#31

Post by bombcar »

tetha wrote: post #9
tantalor wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good idea for a Factorio mod? A new failure mode resets output progress back to zero if you lose power or some other input while crafting. You could design circuit networks to cut power to non-essential systems so the rest of the factory can keep producing.

Some mods in modded minecraft had that and it's a very punishing mechanic unless implemented well. It eats all of your power and usually also very expensive items very quickly usually. Assume you have like 600RF/tick generated, common with certain generator constellations. 1 tick - 1024 RF and one input consumed, crafting fails due to not enough power. 1 tick wait, 1 tick, 1024 RF and one input consumed, ... This can…

GT:NH has “easy mode” enabled in some regards - it won’t finish the craft but it WILL wait for power (actually keep trying) - so if you fix the power problems you can finish and not lose the mats.

May or may not apply to multi blocks.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#32

Post by dylan604 »

tantalor wrote: post #4
bob1029 wrote: post #3

> forcing the facility to shut down for at least a few hours > As a result, the company had to scrap thousands of wafers Anything involving wet chemistry, photoresist, furnaces, etc. is very time-constrained. You can't let wafers sit around indefinitely. Certain process steps must be followed up very quickly to avoid scrap. This is why you dont see redundant power for manufacturing lines. A 3nm line needs hundreds of…

Good idea for a Factorio mod? A new failure mode resets output progress back to zero if you lose power or some other input while crafting. You could design circuit networks to cut power to non-essential systems so the rest of the factory can keep producing.

Mindustry has something similar with pumping various gasses/liquids through plumbing. If you accidentally mix them while building new lines, things stop working when your gases get mixed up forcing you to purge the line.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#33

Post by NoiseBert69 »

Animats wrote: post #24

This was apparently a Linde installation custom built for TSMC in Arizona.[1] Nitrogen, oxygen, and argon are extracted from air on-site and purified. That's Linde's primary business; liquefying and distilling air. This isn't some little local company or a company operating outside their area of expertise. Those gases are storeable, so it's surprising there wasn't enough tank capacity to deal with outages. The site p…

Linde is huge. They can produce and offer all gases in all available purity classes.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#34

Post by TimorousBestie »

limagnolia wrote: post #25
itake wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if the US workers earned OT like TW workers do, the "culture" gap would shrink.

Is OT "overtime"? How is it legal not to pay overtime in any US factory? Unless they are salaried (exempt)?

A lot of the workers there probably are exempt under American law.

I’m not an expert on Taiwanese labor laws but their list of exempt labor categories in the LSA is much shorter than the one in the American FLSA.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#35

Post by itake »

limagnolia wrote: post #25
itake wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if the US workers earned OT like TW workers do, the "culture" gap would shrink.

Is OT "overtime"? How is it legal not to pay overtime in any US factory? Unless they are salaried (exempt)?

yeah, overtime. My cousin is an engineer at TSMC (who worked both in Tainin and now in Arizona) and is w-2 exempt.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#36

Post by [deleted] »

NoiseBert69 wrote: post #33
Animats wrote: post #24

This was apparently a Linde installation custom built for TSMC in Arizona.[1] Nitrogen, oxygen, and argon are extracted from air on-site and purified. That's Linde's primary business; liquefying and distilling air. This isn't some little local company or a company operating outside their area of expertise. Those gases are storeable, so it's surprising there wasn't enough tank capacity to deal with outages. The site p…

Linde is huge. They can produce and offer all gases in all available purity classes.

[deleted]

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#37

Post by itake »

coredog64 wrote: post #26
agentifysh wrote: post #12

seems like what is often downplayed or silent on American media is the cultural mismatch between TSMC taiwanese engineers and their american counterparts so it always comes to those out of the loop as a bit of a surprise but from what I've read from individual Taiwanese workers and their feedback its clear that there is significant regret from one side. and it doesn't seem to limited to just TSMC but another large co…

There are like half a dozen semiconductor manufacturers in Phoenix that were here before TSMC arrived. There's a robust pipeline from ASU to these same manufacturers. Can we please just stop with the nonsensical notion that "Americans don't know how to fabricate semiconductors"?

its not that the USA can't produce semi-conductors. Its that semi-conductor production, at TSMC's scale (both in terms of number of units, yield rates, and depth) currently requires highly skilled workers to work a lot of their hours to "baby sit" the wafer production.

Maybe there is a world where TSMC can hire enough skilled workers and optimize processes enabling people to go home at 5p, but that is not currently the case.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#38

Post by bobmcnamara »

sevensor wrote: post #20
bob1029 wrote: post #3

> forcing the facility to shut down for at least a few hours > As a result, the company had to scrap thousands of wafers Anything involving wet chemistry, photoresist, furnaces, etc. is very time-constrained. You can't let wafers sit around indefinitely. Certain process steps must be followed up very quickly to avoid scrap. This is why you dont see redundant power for manufacturing lines. A 3nm line needs hundreds of…

It didn’t happen, but the facilities team at the fab where I worked was seriously considering installing a flywheel to cover power bumps. What I don’t get about this story is how this actually happened. All our process gasses were out in a tank farm and we knew how much pressure we had. We would have stopped the line if there wasn’t enough to proceed. Were they separating air onsite or something?

Yes, Linde has an onsite plant and is building two more.

For some processes, stopping will botch the wafer. In the event of a gas shortage, do plants plan which lines to take down first, and which lines should complete a process step?

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#39

Post by j_walter »

itake wrote: post #15
agentifysh wrote: post #12

seems like what is often downplayed or silent on American media is the cultural mismatch between TSMC taiwanese engineers and their american counterparts so it always comes to those out of the loop as a bit of a surprise but from what I've read from individual Taiwanese workers and their feedback its clear that there is significant regret from one side. and it doesn't seem to limited to just TSMC but another large co…

Perhaps if the US workers earned OT like TW workers do, the "culture" gap would shrink.

TW workers have a majority of their compensation in bonuses, so the OT portion is quite small and many do not even bother to ask for it. The overall compensation between a TW and US engineer at TSMC is also significant. Not to mention the lowest paid hourly workers...where in TW they make 2-3X minimum wage, but in the US it's like 1.25X.

Re: TSMC Arizona outage saw fab halt, Apple wafers scrapped

#40

Post by j_walter »

bob1029 wrote: post #3

> forcing the facility to shut down for at least a few hours > As a result, the company had to scrap thousands of wafers Anything involving wet chemistry, photoresist, furnaces, etc. is very time-constrained. You can't let wafers sit around indefinitely. Certain process steps must be followed up very quickly to avoid scrap. This is why you dont see redundant power for manufacturing lines. A 3nm line needs hundreds of…

TSMC has backup generators in their AZ fab. You actually have to have backup power or a few hundred millisecond blip could cause days or weeks of tool down time. You should see what happens when you lose the ability to keep a clean room at temp/humidity/airflow...it's weeks or months.
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