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Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

theguardian.com

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Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#71

Post by squishington »

carsoon wrote: post #3
shswkna wrote: post #2

From the article: > They can also increase suicidal ideation. A very close family member committed suicide, after Prozac dosage adjustments made his brain chemistry go haywire. This happened 30 years ago, and it has been known to us that Prozac can cause this, since then. The Guardians headline is way, way understating the real situation here.

The problem with suicidal depression is that if someone has created the thought pattern that death is best, then removing the symptoms of depression (lethargy, lack of energy, no willpower) now gives the person the ability to actually follow through with the act. Medications almost always target symptoms and never address root causes.

My understanding is that the optimal scenario is taking an SSRI in combination with therapy. The SSRI adds flexibility for the brain to respond to therapy and envisage new possibilities. If you don't include therapy, you've just established a new baseline to habituate to.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#72

Post by anuramat »

hirvi74 wrote: post #43

I can't bring myself to try an SSRI. I just cannot do it. I've got a prescription for an NDRI on my desk, and I still won't take it. I am not anti-psychiatry either. I take psychiatric medication for a different condition already. But something about anti-depressants just doesn't sit well with me. As crazy as it may sound, I think a lot of my depression stems from living a life that is not true to myself and due to c…

> not some true disorder

there's a tool on your desk that might help you solve your problem; what does it matter if the problem is an "appropriate response of your body"? so is pain/anxiety/diarrhea

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#73

Post by Forgeties79 »

hirvi74 wrote: post #50
Forgeties79 wrote: post #35

This reads to me like over-prescription rather than lack of efficacy but I’m also not a doctor and won’t presume my kneejerk reaction is accurate. We saw a similar whiplash with Ritalin after over-prescribing in the 90’s/2000’s. ADHD medication absolutely works, but for a lot of people it didn’t for this reason.

Even for people with legit ADHD, like myself, medication isn't always a home run. I think something like 10%-20% of people do not respond well to any medications. I personally am only a 'partial responder' in that I only really get an improvement in focus/concentration -- not really anything else. But hell, that is still better than life without medication.

Definitely didn’t mean to imply it’s a home run. I’m just saying it clearly and legitimately helps a ton of people.

My point is if you include more and more people who don’t need it because of over-prescription it’s going to appear as lower overall efficacy while still helping a lot of people in the pool.

Making up numbers: If only 20 out of 100 people actually have ADHD then out the gate you’ve ruled out helping 80% of the people. So if 15 of the remaining 20 see improvement in their daily lives that means 75% suddenly looks like 15%.

Diagnosing and treatment is never that clean, there will always be some people who don’t necessarily need a certain medication yet get it prescribed (or don’t when they need it! Especially women with ADHD) because doctors are fallible like anybody else, systemic issues, etc. But with a commonly prescribed medication like Adderall the problem is definitely more pronounced.

Anyway I’m curious enough to look more closely at the study, this is a very interesting topic. If Xanax is really not helping people that’s pretty serious.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#76

Post by forgetfreeman »

Aeglaecia wrote: post #52
forgetfreeman wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even more fascinating when you have first hand experience with how much unmitigated guesswork goes into selecting psychiatric meds and their dosage.

it's somehow even more fascinating when you talk to dozens of people who were medicated as kids and get an idea of the real implications

...or literally watched friends get over-medicated into committing suicide.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#77

Post by MattRix »

hirvi74 wrote: post #48
MattRix wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems a little snarky. For someone with ADHD it’s not as much about “increased” productivity but rather non-zero productivity.

As someone with ADHD, if your productivity was decreased or did not increase in the slightest, then I doubt a doctor would keep prescribing the medication. Such increases do not have to be astronomically large, but I do believe increasing the productivity of people with ADHD is absolutely part of the benefit.

I agree, but I think you’re misunderstanding my comment. I was replying to a snarky comment that seemed to imply that the effect of taking amphetamines is obvious and mundane.

The point I was trying to make is that the effect on someone with ADHD can be profound and transformative, not like going from 80 to 100 but rather from 0 to 100. You suddenly feel like a functional person (I say this as someone with ADHD).

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#78

Post by pronouncedjerry »

cornstalks wrote: post #25
pixelready wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding everyone’s cow is expensive and time consuming: https://antidepressantcow.org/2020/02/the-story-of-the-antid... But is the only true cure to the suffering. We’d have to undergo a massive reorganization of society (and upset a few hefty profit margins) to prioritize that, so we settle for the messy symptom management we have.

That story doesn’t work for people with depression who otherwise have very good lives. I grew up in a stable household with a loving family and both parents present and supportive. I’ve never had financial hardship, either as a kid depending on my parents to provide or as an adult providing for myself and family. I did very well in school, had plenty of friends, never had enemies, never got bullied or even talked bad…

very interesting. would you be comfortable sharing what therapy uncovered as the cause for you?

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#79

Post by IAmBroom »

thebigspacefuck wrote: post #40
fgonzag wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, after struggling for 39 years, glp-1 + SSRI + ADHD meds have made me a normal productive human, and 2 years ago I had pretty much given up on the possibility. Having a child forced me to fix my life, and I'm incredibly happy because of it.

What’s normal anyway?

I think that's a shorthand for "not dysfunctional and neurotically impaired".

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#80

Post by salemh »

shswkna wrote: post #2

From the article: > They can also increase suicidal ideation. A very close family member committed suicide, after Prozac dosage adjustments made his brain chemistry go haywire. This happened 30 years ago, and it has been known to us that Prozac can cause this, since then. The Guardians headline is way, way understating the real situation here.

The efficacy of anti-depressants has been consistently over-inflated, so generations were poisoned with side-effects: suicidal ideation, homicidal tendencies, etc.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20616621/

Results: Meta-analyses of FDA trials suggest that antidepressants are only marginally efficacious compared to placebos and document profound publication bias that inflates their apparent efficacy. These meta-analyses also document a second form of bias in which researchers fail to report the negative results for the pre-specified primary outcome measure submitted to the FDA, while highlighting in published studies positive results from a secondary or even a new measure as though it was their primary measure of interest. The STARD analysis found that the effectiveness of antidepressant therapies was probably even lower than the modest one reported by the study authors with an apparent progressively increasing dropout rate across each study phase.*

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