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Being poor vs. being broke

blog.ctms.me

261–270 of 732 posts

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People thinking that "poor is a mindset" are lacking in that. I have never even considered people thinking like that. Is that real? Early in life I realized that the biggest factor of how you end up seems to be luck, where you're born, what's in your genes, how did parents raise you. Later in life I realized that most of the rest is mental health which you also don't have the greatest influence over the first 2 dec…

You can see it elsewhere in the comments on this post!

I was also of the naive impression we had collectively moved from this thinking and it was more so just a difficult problem to attack inherently. The comments here are very sobering.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#262
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>Immigrants arrive here This is a massively broad brush with a huge filter bias applied. 1. Many immigrants not from the contiguous countries next to yours were actually rather wealthy and education in relation to where they came from. 2. Immigrants from close countries typically are the ones that are more motivated in the first place (bias filter). It's also common they have relations and contacts in the country the…

> Many immigrants [...] were actually rather wealthy and education in relation to where they came from.

But they're not wealthy here, and they can't buy the cost of living in NYC or LA with that level of wealth.

With the education point, you're gesturing at something like the real reasons they often outperform very poor Americans (if we compare only equivalent capacity for the sake of argument), I believe: habit, work ethic, drive, belief in improvement. Dom's article about what "poor" looks like makes sense from the inside, but after making it out one looks back and sees all the opportunities everyone around them had to get out of poverty, and it looks a little different, then. Not everyone has all the same opportunities, but a key driver is being open to those that appear, and conducting your life such that they are more likely.

The despair of believing they can't get out of the rut they're in is one of the causes of not getting out of the rut they are in. It's not that the despair isn't real, but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy (and this is true even if they win the lottery, looking at outcomes there).

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#263
The point of disagreement here seems to be about poverty itself. The author (and many in these comments) seem aghast at the very idea of poverty: how can this state be allowed to exist?!

The truth is that humanity’s default state is one of “poverty”. It should evoke no surprise or confusion whatsoever, and yet it does.

Poverty is an entirely valid and normal state for a person to be in. There isn’t a vast shadowy conspiracy trying to keep you down; you’re just at the default state of humanity.

Humans improving their situation, now THAT is surprising and interesting, and it’s the thing we should be focusing our curiosity on. If you’re poor, emulate those who aren’t. Maybe they’re onto something.

The alternative is to blame the vast shadowy conspiracy, “capitalism”, etc, and remain poor. That’s an entirely valid mode of being. Nobody owes you anything.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>its just hard work and grit Which country, though? Because that's like 90% of the solution. The other 9% is good health. The remaining 1% is a mix of your community/family/friends and, sure, hard work and grit and whatnot.

china 1962

Credit where credit is due.

I could say "yeah, but that was your whole country", but that was definitely your parents and everybody else doing unpleasant things for a while to improve the well-being of everyone after them. Amazing.

Edit: answer to @kragen. I have to do it like this as I'm (partially) censored on HN.

xe doesn't mention xir parents leaving China, from the context of this conversation I would assume they are still in China since we are talking about the environment where people thrived.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#265
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, and an environmnet that allows folks "from the wrong side of the tracks," to get ahead. For all its faults, the US is just such a place. I suspect that many other nations are starting to improve. At one time, the UK was a nation that you couldn't get ahead, unless you were of a certain class. I think that it is much more like the US, nowadays. You can hear lots of cockney accents in Harrods.

> I think that it is much more like the US, nowadays. IIRC, mobility indexes crossed quite a few years ago. IOW, UK is better than the US in this respect. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index , though it's a claim I've read based on other data and before that particular index was compiled.

Social mobility doesn't measure financial welfare and is only weakly correlated with the ability to improve your financial situation. It is largely a measure of wage compression in the economy. If everyone makes similar wages then the population will be highly socially mobile even if those wages are mediocre.

Absolute economic mobility matters much more in terms of having an opportunity to get out of poverty. High economic mobility increases wage variance and therefore naturally reduces social mobility scores since the latter is a relative rank measure.

There are countries where increasing your income $10k makes you "socially mobile" and other countries where increasing your income $50k does not.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#266
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many people buy the American dream of "If you just work hard enough, you'll be successful.". If you believe this, then you'd have to believe the opposite: "If you're poor and unsucessful, that means you didn't work hard enough, you must be lazy.". And too many trust-fund kids or kids from rich parents who could afford to send them to expensive schools (or rich enough to live in a district with a well-funded schoo…

>If you're poor and unsucessful, that means you didn't work hard enough, you must be lazy.". Calvinism. Your poor because you're bad. Interestingly enough Calvinism serves as a lot of the basis for what became Capitalism.

I dunno. People put too much stock in Max Weber, who cherry-picked his evidence: he literally used Benjamin Franklin, a deist who'd abandoned Christian doctrine, as his model "Protestant." He created a compelling just-so story that is now picked up by people who never check the actual sources.

I mean, here are actual Calvin quotes:

> Nothing is more dangerous, than to be blinded by prosperity.

> Men are undoubtedly more in danger from prosperity than from adversity. for when matters go smoothly, they flatter themselves, and are intoxicated by their success.

> A man will be justified by faith when, excluded from righteousness of works, he by faith lays hold of the righteousness of Christ, and clothed in it, appears in the sight of God not as a sinner—but as righteous.

> Hence the Prophet reminds us, that though God would bountifully feed his Church, supply his people with food, and testify by external tokens his paternal love, and though also he would pour out his Spirit, (a token far more remarkable,) yet the faithful would continue to be distressed with many troubles; for God designs not to deal too delicately with his Church on earth; but when he gives tokens of his kindness he at the same time mingles some exercises for patience, lest the faithful should become self-indulgent or sleep on earthly blessings, but that they may ever seek higher things."

Anyways, it's probably good to let Actual Calvinists weigh on the matter:

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-real-protestant-eth...

If you want to argue that this work ethic is a real phenomenon...sure. But I think you have to start with recognizing that the supposed exemplar was a person who generally unmoored from orthodox Protestantism, so "Protestant work ethic" is really a misnomer.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea my partner grew up genuinely poor and it’s interesting seeing how it impacts their mentality. The simplest but clear example is they never finish low-perishable food they like until they have more of it. There is always a few potato chips left in the bag. One cookie left waiting till it’s necessary to get through a rough day or more are purchased. They are the best saver I’ve ever met. But it wasn’t until they go…

I find myself doing that. I'm not sure if it's just a silly habit I have because I don't like to run out of anything even if it is not important or if I picked it up from my dad who lived through the "great" depression as a child.

Conversely, I had an acquaintance that grew poor, and would finish 95% of the cookies in a bag, but always leave the almost empty bag to the next person to find out, even if it had to stay that way for months.

Strangely, she did that only with comfort foods.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#268
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Being poor is you already did all those things. You cancelled all your streaming services years ago. You make all your food from scratch all the time. You never go to fucking Starbucks. You fix everything yourself. You already stretch everything to the limit. That is how you have to live every day of your life, for eternity, with no relief in sight.

> Being poor is you already did all those things. ... You make all your food from scratch all the time. If poor americans did this they wouldn't be so fat, so that is wrong. Food stamps lets the poor eat unhealthily even though they are poor, while most of the world poor means you have to make your own and not get all the industrial crap. The other interpretation is that people who don't make their own food aren't re…

You can definitely be fat making food from scratch. Making it from scratch doesn't mean it is low calorie. See also: southern home cooking.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone is wondering why solving homelessness and poverty is so hard, this sibling reply is dead but I think people need to see that this opinion exists, and we need to contemplate the richest and most powerful people in this country share this sentiment: "we're not blind to it, half of us are sick of paying for it for multiple generations, accruing interest. we're paying for poor people from 20 years ago still. le…

It's nobody's fault for becoming poor. But if you're staying poor (dirt poor) for decades, then there is something you're doing wrong. The other commenter puts it in a rude way, but there's something to it. If you evidently can't take care of yourself, then you shouldn't be given more money. You should be in some kind of institution which takes care of your basic needs.

> You should be in some kind of institution which takes care of your basic needs.

You're right of course. The problem is that such institution no longer exist in North America.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luck really can’t be overstated imo. I was genuinely just lucky to be interested in computer programming as a teenager. I wasn’t thinking about careers, I just wanted to make games. If my interest was basketball my life would have been very different.

You were lucky to have the genetics that allowed you to have cognitive capabilities to understand computers and programming. Many people don't and never will. There is always a bottom % of people who are under the cognitive capacity to meaningfully contribute to society. That doesn't mean they are bad people, but they will always be poor/broke. Ranting about this is just ranting about human nature. Life isn't fair, s…

>There is always a bottom % of people who are under the cognitive capacity to meaningfully contribute to society. That doesn't mean they are bad people, but they will always be poor/broke.

There's a lot of dumb rich people, too. Sometimes the wield a lot of power and are indeed bad people.

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