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Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

tech.fortune.cnn.com

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Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#91

Post by dastbe »

wtallis wrote: post #58
shinratdr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we just make this the auto-reply comment whenever someone mentions skeuomorphism on the internet? I couldn't be more sick of the concept, except when I hear it constantly being used incorrectly. Textures and styles aren't skeuomorphism, skeuomorphism is imitating real-world objects to provide a sense of familiarity in execution. Not a notes app that looks like a notepad, a notes app that FUNCTIONS like a notepad.

You're overly restricting the definition of skeuomorphism, or perhaps confusing it entirely with anachronism. Wikipedia's definition of skeuomorphism is a design element that is retained as an ornamental imitation of a formerly functional counterpart. When a notepad app wastes screen space on drawing non-functional spiral binding, that's definitely skeuomorphism.

You're right, that is skeumorphic. And many other things Apple does are too.

However, that doesn't mean every thing -- like the leather stitching in "find my friends" -- that Apple does involving natural textures is skeumorphic.

Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#92

Post by rustynails77 »

ams6110 wrote: post #80
robomartin wrote: post #50

Nah. I don't agree with the premise of this article. This was not one person's decision. Many actors had to be involved in the decision making process. For some reason Apple decided that kicking Google off the platform was worth the abuse they'd have to endure with Maps. Those who keep saying "Maps is great" need to leave an egocentric view and realize that there are millions of users all around the world with differ…

You are assuming that both the bad map data and the searches are evenly distributed across all locations. If their data are good in the most-searched areas, the number of users affected is much smaller.

There are enough articles that re-enforce that Apple Maps (in its current incarnation) are sorely lacking, even in popular areas... A few examples,

- Park Hyatt Tokyo - Tokyo Railway Station (the MAIN station) - Paddington Station in London - Melbourne Aus and Frankfurt Germany Airport roads - Hong Kong is misplaced http://www.ausbt.com.au/6-reasons-travellers-should-be-wary-...

The list goes on across the net. I support several other posters in that only an Apple fan would say that the maps are good overall. All you will hear from these people is how TomTom had a bad map 5 years ago, or how Garmin is missing a 3 year old suburb in their area. The fact is that in this instance, Apple stuffed up severely.

It was a brave decision of Apple to go ahead with this version of maps - they would have known full well just how bad it was. Maybe it's the kick in the butt that Apple needed to catch up quickly. I expect that within 6 months, the situation will be a lot better for Apple.

Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#93

Post by outside1234 »

No, Apple has a "liberal arts problem" in that they don't seem to have the hard core folks to do algorithms in the way that Google does. Apple has a lot of smart people, but can you really see them building a self driving car with tons of lasers spinning on it in order to have super accurate maps? I can't. But that's what Google did.

Its also a "device centric problem": I'm always struck when talking with someone from Apple about how device centric they are thinking (running algorithms locally that should run in the cloud, etc.). The cloud is eating the world and device centric thinking, while its done them well for a while, is increasingly incorrect.

Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#94

Post by ralfd »

Bud wrote: post #23

Who at Fortune deserves to be fired for its recent long string of incredibly idiotic articles about Apple, which have been panned here and elsewhere, then? I think the new Maps app is fantastic; the data accuracy leaves a bit to be desired, but I notice that those doing the most high-profile complaining point to errors in rural England, rural Ontario, etc. Here in the Bay Area, the data is working fine for me as well…

I agree. But also:

> Maps is likely to improve, and fast.

This is going to be the real test for Apple. They need to fix stuff, they know that, it will be interesting to see when improvements will be noticible.

Cook spoke of 500 million searches in two weeks. If only 1 promille triggered a feedback or "report problem", that would be 500.000 change requests. How can you brute-force this massive amount of data?

Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#95

Post by rustynails77 »

esolyt wrote: post #75
nachteilig wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really disagree with your views of the "ain't broke" area. For me and a lot of users it _was_ broken, because it had tiles that didn't zoom properly with a slow connection and didn't have turn by turn. Maps was falling behind, especially with the lack of turn by turn. Even my non-technical friends have been wondering when iOS would finally catch up with Android on that front.

>Even my non-technical friends have been wondering when iOS would finally catch up with Android on that front. And it did now?

No, but the point is that Apple needed to break away from Google at some point (note: the timeframe to breakaway is subjective). I would say that within 6 months, things will be a lot better for Apple. If they'd stayed with Google, the answer would still be "no" in 6 months.

Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#96

Post by ImprovedSilence »

voxmatt wrote: post #77
CamperBob2 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those who keep saying "Maps is great" need to leave an egocentric view and realize that there are millions of users all around the world with different experiences. I have a theory about these people -- they are the ones who never realized that you could search Maps for place names. If you search for street addresses, both Maps implementations perform OK. But the strength of Google's database is that you can type alm…

I'm not trying to apologize for Apple's mess -- and it is a mess -- but your theory doesn't hold for me. Some places are genuinely fine: I'm in San Francisco and the maps really are pretty damn good (in SF, I'll actually use the word good). Of course, this is right in Apple's back yard, but the reports seem to indicate that most major U.S. cities are in good shape (mind you, I'm talking about maps & places, not flyov…

I don't have an iPhone, but isn't the new maps missing public transit data? Does that mean it won't route me through subways, etc, or doesn't even show bus stops and subway stations? And what about bike paths, Google has fantastic labeling of bike routes. As a city dweller, it's good to know they are "accurate", but, from what I've heard, they are missing many key components that would actually help tons in a city. Not trolling here, just asking if maps has that info, and to what degree. Cuz if that is missing from city data, that to me is just as bad as inaccurate maps for a flyover state.

Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#97

Post by arrrg »

dastbe wrote: post #88
arrrg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you two are wrong. Skeumorphism is about ornamental design, about design features that imitate something that was once necessary but is no more. It’s consequently all about style, not about function (at least when it comes to real-world objects). Wikipedia has examples like flame shaped lightbulbs, artificial film grain or spoke patterns on hubcaps. It seems that when it comes to software, skeumorphism can al…

If we're going by the wikipedia page, here's their definition they provide: "skeuomorphism is when a product imitates design elements /functionally necessary/ in the original product design, but that becomes ornamental in the new product design." So yes, it is about function. And also, the three things you mention are directly related to the function of the original objects. While these things are clearly used orname…

What? You seem to be very confused. Just give it up. You are wrong.

Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#98

Post by rustynails77 »

ralfd wrote: post #94
Bud wrote: post #23

Who at Fortune deserves to be fired for its recent long string of incredibly idiotic articles about Apple, which have been panned here and elsewhere, then? I think the new Maps app is fantastic; the data accuracy leaves a bit to be desired, but I notice that those doing the most high-profile complaining point to errors in rural England, rural Ontario, etc. Here in the Bay Area, the data is working fine for me as well…

I agree. But also: > Maps is likely to improve, and fast. This is going to be the real test for Apple. They need to fix stuff, they know that, it will be interesting to see when improvements will be noticible. Cook spoke of 500 million searches in two weeks. If only 1 promille triggered a feedback or "report problem", that would be 500.000 change requests. How can you brute-force this massive amount of data?

>I agree

A quick Google search will tell you that there are non-trivial problems all over the world in major cities at major landmarks with Apple maps.

It's nice that you agree with the parent poster that Apple Maps are fantastic, but let me say that I don't think so. There are far too many obvious and MAJOR cockups (eg. Hong Kong is misplaced - it's not even on the island, Tokyo's main railway is missing, etc.) ... but you think that's Fantastic??

I will point you to Garmin and TomTom as two examples of maps that FAR exceed Apple's "fantastic" offering.

In 6 months time, the landscape will (hopefully) be different ... but to call this offering fantastic is ignorant.

Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#99

Post by TheGateKeeper »

philh wrote: post #37
TheGateKeeper wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maps, however, is crucial to most people that use an iPhone Citation please. Nobody I know uses google maps, even when we travel (which is a lot).

How do you know that nobody you know uses Google maps? I'm assuming you know at least a few people who own smartphones and who you do not often travel with; have you asked them whether they use Google maps?

What an insulting question. Of course I asked them - I'm not going to fire off that statement without checking with them.

Re: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

#100

Post by 001sky »

outside1234 wrote: post #93

No, Apple has a "liberal arts problem" in that they don't seem to have the hard core folks to do algorithms in the way that Google does. Apple has a lot of smart people, but can you really see them building a self driving car with tons of lasers spinning on it in order to have super accurate maps? I can't. But that's what Google did. Its also a "device centric problem": I'm always struck when talking with someone fro…

No, Apple has a "liberal arts problem"

-- Seriously? This is "analysis"?

A "a self driving car with tons of lasers spinning on it"? Learn before you speak. The noticeable problems are not subtle: clouds covering cities in the UK, buildings not being named on College Campus, etc. Stadia 0.5km out of place. They are obvious, silly, dealbreaker problems for Soccer Moms and Sociology FFS. Algo's are not going to solve this cr@p, its Cartpgraphy 101...and in any event, Google has to hand fit the data that they do have, for a variety of reasons, to sat-nav visuals (including incosistent basemaps).

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