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Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

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Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#61

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

fastball wrote: post #32
standardUser wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think anyone is meaningfully harmed by being algorithmically shown job ads stereotypical of one gender rather than another If you show me a lower paying girl job instead of a higher paying boy job, and I apply for and get the girl job, how is the company tricking me into applying for the lower paying job based on my gender not a problem to you? How was I not harmed by having a better opportunity hidden from…

You are not owed either job. Getting a high-paying "boy job" is your own responsibility if you want one.

While any particular individual isn't "owed a job", it must be true that people as a whole are "owed" jobs and that if governments are incapable or unwilling to foster the economic environment that makes it possible for all working-age people to get jobs, then those governments are invalid. And, as much as we might want to deny it we do live in an era where it seems that maybe the economic environment does not provide enough jobs for the entirety of the population. Glibly saying "you're not owed a job" might not be strictly false, but it's certainly misleading and out of touch.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#63

Post by IanCal »

seneca wrote: post #35
ivan_gammel wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most efficient advertising of jobs is not gender-based, it’s skill-based. Ideally you need to show your ads to candidates with exact match to job description and then some more if the pool is too small. It has nothing to do with gender.

The most efficient advertisement for a job would be to only advertise it to the single candidate who is the best fit for your profile, is looking for a job, and would accept the salary you're offering. Unfortunately intimately detailed profiles like that aren't available, so we target cohorts with the coarse details we do have such as age and gender.

And targeting specific ages and genders without having a good reason why those are required attributes for the job is going to be more of an issue when it comes to discrimination cases.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#64

Post by thih9 »

Alex2037 wrote: post #55
hydrogen7800 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All discrimination can be described as "revealed preference". A very convenient way of ignoring systemic harm.

again, these are ads . not job postings, job ads . it's not "harmful" to enable advertisers to choose which audiences to target.

It is harmful and it is also illegal.

At least according to “Is It Discriminatory to Advertise Job Opportunities on Facebook?”, https://www.thatcherlaw.com/blog/2022/12/is-it-discriminator...

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#65

Post by nkmnz »

wiseowise wrote: post #33
cm2012 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The algorithm is responding to people's revealed preferences in what job ads they want to see

How far are you willing to stretch this? What about skin color? Nationality? Religion?

So if I advertise my golfing equipment only in golf clubs, and golf clubs happen to be predominantly visited by old white men, am I discriminating against the young, against women, and against people of color?

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#66

Post by JuniperMesos »

standardUser wrote: post #11
JuniperMesos wrote: post #3

> The Netherlands Institute for Human Rights said in a February 18 decision that Facebook’s algorithm reinforced gender stereotypes by mainly showing “typically female professions” to female Facebook users in the Netherlands and that Meta (META), the social platform’s owner, should have monitored and adjusted its algorithm to prevent that. > For example, ads for mechanic positions were predominantly shown to men, whi…

> I don't think anyone is meaningfully harmed by being algorithmically shown job ads stereotypical of one gender rather than another If you show me a lower paying girl job instead of a higher paying boy job, and I apply for and get the girl job, how is the company tricking me into applying for the lower paying job based on my gender not a problem to you? How was I not harmed by having a better opportunity hidden from…

Maybe the actual reason you are applying for and getting a lower paying girl job is because you lack the initiative to try to get a higher paying job yourself and instead are blindly making life decisions based on what ads in media you happen to encounter, and then blame this on some company tricking you.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#67

Post by flir »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #29
JuniperMesos wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's to be gained by making it illegal under French law?

Advertising will simultaneously become a lot more expensive and less effective. The ability of job seekers to find jobs they're willing to apply to will go down. Are those not goals of yours?

> Advertising will simultaneously become a lot more expensive and less effective.

Oh no!

> The ability of job seekers to find jobs they're willing to apply to will go down.

The playing field will be level.

Who doesn't love a perfectly informed market?

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#68

Post by IshKebab »

HappyPanacea wrote: post #9
JuniperMesos wrote: post #3

> The Netherlands Institute for Human Rights said in a February 18 decision that Facebook’s algorithm reinforced gender stereotypes by mainly showing “typically female professions” to female Facebook users in the Netherlands and that Meta (META), the social platform’s owner, should have monitored and adjusted its algorithm to prevent that. > For example, ads for mechanic positions were predominantly shown to men, whi…

What is gained from allowing such bias?

More efficient advertising. Not worth it in my opinion though.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#69

Post by rvnx »

piva00 wrote: post #41
rvnx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Situation: Men are clicking on job of mechanics, more than women. Consequence: men are now more likely shown mechanics job. What is gained: more accurate content, more interesting content, more engagement. As a result: men are more likely to be shown jobs interesting for men, and women are more likely to be shown jobs interesting for women. Which means: Increased chances to find a matching job, and to save time doing…

It also means perpetuating the bias, more men will then apply for the job while maybe some women that could get interested didn't get it shown, reinforcing the already existing issue. Why do we want to perpetuate biases without a chance to allow it to potentially be corrected?

Only if the advertiser restricts the audience to only men or only women or certain age groups. If there are no such restrictions, the algorithms self-balance over time naturally. But advertisers don't want that, because it makes them waste money, so instead they prefer to manually add targeting segments.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#70

Post by tokai »

inglor_cz wrote: post #43
standardUser wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-discrimination laws exist because of the exceptionally well-documented tendency of people in positions of power to judge people based on their gender, sexuality, creed or the color of their skin.

I don't doubt that there are people who operate on a "well, I am a Muslim so I want Muslim employees" scheme or similar ones (woman, black, young), but I do believe that this should be covered by freedom of association. I do understand that you think otherwise, I have met many people who see things differently.

Freedom of association has nothing to do with companies and employers. You misunderstand what it is completely if you believe so.
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