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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#431

Post by whstl »

apexalpha wrote: post #356
gyomu wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm sorry for how you feel" is widely accepted as a non-apology in English. Sincere apologies show awareness of how one's actions led to the situation that would require the apology.

That's great but we're not all native English speakers. And "I'm sorry for you" seems like a hollow phrase to a Dutch person but this is used all the time in English. It's like how you say "How are you" when you really don't care but it's just how you start a conversation.

Not saying you "have" to know or that the interpretation is even correct for this case, but, just to explain:

The "I'm sorry you feel this way" is quite a recent phenomenon. It started showing up in public apologies by companies and celebrities, purely for PR. It's basically a deflective euphemism for "I'm sorry that you don't like whatever happened" without really admitting culpability, sidestepping all responsibility.

With that said: I don't even know if the author (Kiki) is a native english speaker, since she's part of other language translation groups, so it might be 100% without intent. But that's how a lot of people perceive it today.

Re: End of Japanese community

#432

Post by styanax »

emayljames wrote: post #391
detaro wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a community matter posted in a public place, a non-statement with an immediate attempt to direct it to private conversation reads like trying to avoid attention to your mistakes (e.g. hypothetically you don't have to public admit you didn't do anything to check for guidelines to follow). More vibe-y, it all sounds very corporate, like any PR statement in response to criticism ever, or a manager writing to an emp…

I am from the UK, and I also think this is true. Hop on a call and the wording sounds like they do not want to fix the issue It comes across very condecending. Maybe it is a US problem

Reading other comments, US folks seem divided; I am with you and the others on this side of the fence, I've seen this exact situation play out in corporate life many times. They are attempting to quiet a public discussion of dissent and dissatisfaction.

Re: End of Japanese community

#433

Post by toyg »

shaky-carrousel wrote: post #296
alwa wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure. Common sense common, etc… although it does seem relevant that it was specifically a Japanese-language sub-community who were reacting here. I have to say it feels like a really familiar, NGO-flavored disrespect, though: “we’re doing this favor for underrepresented language communities,” regardless of whether they want/need it or not. “There’s only X number of you having to shoulder the load in XX sub-commun…

Enlightened despotism, all over again.

mixed with good ol' white-man-saviour attitudes.

Re: End of Japanese community

#434

Post by Jach »

jesterson wrote: post #247
adeptima wrote: post #7

10+ years in Japan. The message here is much deeper from my perspective. “Let’s jump on the call” is not the solution. The guy was stripped off of his face. I love Japan for being human. Small business bar or restaurant with 3 tables. Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution… the process was pushed on his head. Google nemawashi decision making process

> Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution If you have a better solution to correct an error or solve a problem than having a call/meeting and openly discuss situation and possible resolutions - I would love to know about that.

Written communication is usually better and allows for more clarity, investigation, preparation, careful thought, and exploring of solutions. When it's not better it's usually because one party doesn't like to read or write and so avoids it as much as they can.

Re: End of Japanese community

#435

Post by benjiro »

apexalpha wrote: post #345
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

As somebody from your Neighboring country, its really comes over as condescending...

"I'm sorry for how you feel" is the definition of non-appology...

Hey, even the AI overlords agree on this...

> The phrase "I'm sorry for how you feel" is often perceived as a non-apology because it shifts blame to the other person's emotions instead of taking responsibility for one's actions. Instead of a genuine apology, it can sound like you're sorry they are upset rather than sorry for your behavior, and it can imply their feelings are the problem. A true apology acknowledges your role and expresses sincere regret for the pain you caused.

In Dutch its something like "Het spijt me, hoe u hierover voelt" ... See the issue, the first part is a apology, that is then reflected to the other person.

"We want to make sure we truly understand what you're struggling with." ...

We do not understand why *you are struggling with this*. For us its perfectly normal, so why are you having a issue with this.

So in Dutch its something like "We willen echt verstaan, waarom u moeite hebt hiermee". Aka, sending the issue back to the other person.

See the issue how both parts flow and shift the issue to the other person. This is not a English language issue because the same way of writing is also done in Dutch if you want to do a non-apology with a dose of gaslighting.

I never see anybody write like this, beyond those that have the intention to rile people up. Its gaslighting 101 ...

Re: End of Japanese community

#436

Post by OvbiousError »

denkmoon wrote: post #250

Ladybird and other browser alternatives cannot come fast enough. Every other week we've got a thread here about some stupid move Mozilla have made, I can't remember the last time I heard positive news about Mozilla.

There is a very loud part of HN that strongly dislikes mozilla/firefox. It's disproportionate imo, I don't understand why they're singled out so often.

Re: End of Japanese community

#437

Post by pjc50 »

nilslindemann wrote: post #267
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

I just read someone asking someone else for a phone call.

Yes. In an online community that operates in written text and is separated by timezones, there's several reasons why that's a no-no.

To me, this seems very simple: they introduced a machine translation workflow. Doing so signals the intent to replace their human translators. The human translators understandably quit rather than collaborate with their replacements.

Re: End of Japanese community

#438

Post by whstl »

rzwitserloot wrote: post #403
nakedper wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from the United States and I read the exact same thing that you did. Somebody really trying to help. Zero condescending or patronizing behavior. It seems like somebody doing their best to reach out and get in contact and yeah I agree completely that hell I could have written this myself. And probably have something like that before. I don't understand what culture would find that condescending at all.

I'm from The Netherlands but have lived in the US for a while and unlike other country brethren responding in this thread, it did come across as condescending to me. Trying to dissect why it comes across, I think it's just me kneejerking to the 'pattern' of specifically "I am sorry you feel that way". I think my kneejerk disdain of that turn of phrase is correct, though. Being blunt here: Because that's a terrible ap…

To me the reason it feels like a non-apology is purely contextual: for some time, it was very fashionable as a public non-apology by celebrities and companies doing PR damage-management. Until people started calling it out.

Re: End of Japanese community

#439

Post by Almondsetat »

port11 wrote: post #278
jesterson wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution If you have a better solution to correct an error or solve a problem than having a call/meeting and openly discuss situation and possible resolutions - I would love to know about that.

The response was condescending and very… American. The call ensures what, that you'll be more receiving to their grievances? That nothing is on the record? A lot of people don't want to jump in calls, ever. The initial response should've validated that the community feels slighted, that they should've brought them onboard for the decision making, etc. Acknowledging the mistake immediately seems like a good start.

>the response was condescending

in your own opinion

>and very American

from an American company? that's what I'd expect. Should they have brought up some Japanese PR consultant just to reply to a community post?

>acknowledging the mistake immediately

Who says a mistake happened? You? Before apologizing maybe we should understand the problem?

Re: End of Japanese community

#440

Post by pjc50 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #71
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

I’m not sure those who speak like that are equipped to understand how offensive their words and tone can be. It suggests a decision can be reversed with a quick call, which questions one’s choices or conviction. As if to suggest the choice was made without considerable thought and care. It’s such an unserious tone to a moment that’s very serious to the other.

> It suggests a decision can be reversed with a quick call

Oh no, both parties understand that the call isn't open to the possibility of changing the decision, it's just to manage the emotions of the person who's being run over by it.

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