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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#391

Post by emayljames »

detaro wrote: post #370
apexalpha wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the original author but as a non-native speaker I guess I miss the cultural connotation surrounding "hop on a call". Doesn't seem weird to me, seems apt to ask to escalate the method of communication when a serious issue like this arises. Would you consider it more respectful to deal with this issue just by posting in the thread?

It's a community matter posted in a public place, a non-statement with an immediate attempt to direct it to private conversation reads like trying to avoid attention to your mistakes (e.g. hypothetically you don't have to public admit you didn't do anything to check for guidelines to follow). More vibe-y, it all sounds very corporate, like any PR statement in response to criticism ever, or a manager writing to an emp…

I am from the UK, and I also think this is true. Hop on a call and the wording sounds like they do not want to fix the issue

It comes across very condecending. Maybe it is a US problem

Re: End of Japanese community

#392

Post by eloisant »

sarreph wrote: post #382
bayindirh wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. English is also not my mother tongue, but this translates to "I'm sorry you feel like that, but we don't care or change anything, can I call you to convince you into doing things our way while completely being off the record?" in my mind. This is forceful and rude in my culture, but it's very rude and a no-…

> but it's very rude and a no-no in Japanese culture What, specifically, about that phrasing is "very rude" and a "no-no" in Japanese culture? I am genuinely curious.

Politely say "I don't care what you think but I won't change anything" is perfectly fine in Japanese culture. Taking an issue privately instead of showing disagreements in public is also perfectly fine for Japanese people.

The issue has nothing to do with Japanese culture, but with how you work with a community of volunteers over the web. "Let's jump on a call" is what you say to a coworker, not to a volunteer in an online community.

Re: End of Japanese community

#393

Post by agnishom »

apexalpha wrote: post #345
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

I don't think there is something inherently patronizing about this. But this tone seems like the most generic possible American corporate faux-friendly tone.

In order to sound truly friendly, one has to break the script

Re: End of Japanese community

#394

Post by codethief »

apexalpha wrote: post #345
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

> As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this.

To be fair, Dutch culture is known for its directness[0] and for not interpreting even the harshest criticism as offensive, so I'm not sure I would trust your judgment on this… :-D

That being said, as a fellow European, I concur.

[0]: There was a great video on this a while back, which I don't seem to be able to find right now. https://www.tiktok.com/@letsdoubledutch/video/73822692756517... seems close enough, though.

Re: End of Japanese community

#395

Post by kstenerud »

whilenot-dev wrote: post #386
kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

This isn't about communication though, it's about community. Mozilla just introduced a bot to overtake community efforts. > another asking to open a communication channel. The other person is asking to open a private communication channel. OT, but where is this reductionism-to-rationalize-trend coming from lately?

Community is also about communication. In fact, that's a primary aspect of a community.

Yeah, Mozilla introduced a bot that's stomping on things. Are they malicious? Twirling neatly waxed mustaches as they cackle gleefully as the little ants scurry about in a panic?

Or is this a case of humans doing what humans do: Screwing things up.

The first step is to open communications, and the most effective form of communication is face-to-face (the way we've evolved to do it).

Getting to the bottom of the issue in 1-1 communication with a representative of the community should be the common approach when complex problems arise, because then you can be sure that you're on the same wavelength before you do your mass communication with the rest of the community. Saves a TON of time and heartache and ill feelings.

Re: End of Japanese community

#396

Post by justinclift »

janmalec wrote: post #282
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

How would you form this response to make it less condensending and patronizing? I won't judge if it is patronizing or not because I'm not very good at this kind of thing but would like to understand the issue.

Maybe something like:

    Oops, sounds like we screwed up really badly.  Sorry. :(

    We'll turn off the sumobot, and put things back the way the SUMO Japanese community was used to operating.

    Would you consider not quitting after we've put things back the way they were? :)

Re: End of Japanese community

#397

Post by ekianjo »

armada651 wrote: post #151
rtpg wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

long and slow consensus building that weighs existing stakeholder's opinions heavily vs doing "the right thing" from the outset. So you move slowly and end up having very annoying conversations and compromises instead of just pushing something through. And the formal process is just a formality anyways, so then anyone not in the informal chatter just gets to experience the capriciousness anyways The sort of consensus…

Move fast and break stuff didn't work out much better though.

You have more than 2 choices

Re: End of Japanese community

#398

Post by csmpltn »

nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

[flagged]

Re: End of Japanese community

#399

Post by chronogamous »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #301
iAMkenough wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also agree. For me it was “sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel…” “Sorry for your feelings” comes off as dismissive and avoiding taking ownership for the lost work and years of volunteer contributions.

In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45831614 jack1243star pointed out the possibility that English might not be Kiki's first language and they perhaps even have used ChatGPT to make the comment sound more polite.

Making a comment sound more polite should be done by addressing the other person correctly and respectfully, and making sure that you are actually responding to the issues that have been raised. When whatever you wrote is so completely offensive and disrespectful, asking ChatGPT to make it sound more polite will undoubtedly make it worse. Like writing "Sorry, not sorry", when the content of your message clearly conveys that you're "Not sorry". It only adds to the disdain of your original message, putting even more emphasis on the fact that you are wasting the recipients time and patience while refusing to show any remorse.

Re: End of Japanese community

#400

Post by drekipus »

whilenot-dev wrote: post #386
kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

This isn't about communication though, it's about community. Mozilla just introduced a bot to overtake community efforts. > another asking to open a communication channel. The other person is asking to open a private communication channel. OT, but where is this reductionism-to-rationalize-trend coming from lately?

> where is this reductionism-to-rationalize-trend coming from

Unironically, AI trends.

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