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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#381

Post by benterix »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #328
p0w3n3d wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say otherwise - it's a reach out to have a relationship. It's hard to have human relationships only by writing. Of course the best way to build it is to meet in person, but if impossible - it's always good to have a video call. If someone is frustrated, the following chats won't do much really. They have already built a wall, and we need to meet around it, not throw our letters over it.

Your claim is based on the very strong assumption that if you have a phone or video call with a person that you already hate, things will get better. My life experience does tell me that this is often not the case: if people are already frustrated and have built a wall, it is better to use something more impersonal, like such an online text discussion.

True but organizations are not uniform, one person decided to take a destructive action and another one might want to fix it.

But I agree, if after receiving such a message someone is saying "let's hop on a call", there's little chance of things going right on the call.

Re: End of Japanese community

#382

Post by sarreph »

bayindirh wrote: post #376
apexalpha wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. English is also not my mother tongue, but this translates to "I'm sorry you feel like that, but we don't care or change anything, can I call you to convince you into doing things our way while completely being off the record?" in my mind. This is forceful and rude in my culture, but it's very rude and a no-…

> but it's very rude and a no-no in Japanese culture

What, specifically, about that phrasing is "very rude" and a "no-no" in Japanese culture?

I am genuinely curious.

Re: End of Japanese community

#383

Post by aleph_minus_one »

xxs wrote: post #340
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also I'd expect if a person volunteers as translator they'd be pretty decent at speaking. Translators (of texts) are not interpreters.

To learn nuances, spoken language is quite important. I am not a translator and English is not my 1st language (technically) - I'd have no issues 'hopping' on a call.

> To learn nuances, spoken language is quite important.

In my experience, it's quite the opposite: written language carries a lot more nuances than the (often more shallow) spoken language.

Re: End of Japanese community

#384

Post by eecc »

bayindirh wrote: post #376
apexalpha wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. English is also not my mother tongue, but this translates to "I'm sorry you feel like that, but we don't care or change anything, can I call you to convince you into doing things our way while completely being off the record?" in my mind. This is forceful and rude in my culture, but it's very rude and a no-…

"We want to make sure we trully (SIC) understand what you're struggling with."

I'm afraid you skipped this part though

Re: End of Japanese community

#385

Post by [deleted] »

haunter wrote: post #280
hazn wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it condescending and patronzing? I read it as a person trying to understand the situation.

The person gives a clear, detailed answer in the post about their problems > "We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with" To me that's very condescending, like someone who reads but doesn't understand Borderline AI response And personally offering a call is like a sidestep "lets move this problem out of the public discourse" which is especially funny considering it's about a forum

[deleted]

Re: End of Japanese community

#386

Post by whilenot-dev »

kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

This isn't about communication though, it's about community. Mozilla just introduced a bot to overtake community efforts.

> another asking to open a communication channel.

The other person is asking to open a private communication channel. OT, but where is this reductionism-to-rationalize-trend coming from lately?

Re: End of Japanese community

#387

Post by DecoySalamander »

apexalpha wrote: post #345
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

Not a native speaker, but to me it reads as canned or AI generated response that acknowledges nothing in the post besides there being some kind of tiny disagreement. I don't see how "I'm sorry for how you feel about this" can be inteprented as anything other than "I'm not at fault, and I'm sorry I'll have to spend time pacifying you".

Feels extremely disrespectful.

Re: End of Japanese community

#388

Post by [deleted] »

janmalec wrote: post #282
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

How would you form this response to make it less condensending and patronizing? I won't judge if it is patronizing or not because I'm not very good at this kind of thing but would like to understand the issue.

[deleted]

Re: End of Japanese community

#389

Post by bayindirh »

sarreph wrote: post #382
bayindirh wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. English is also not my mother tongue, but this translates to "I'm sorry you feel like that, but we don't care or change anything, can I call you to convince you into doing things our way while completely being off the record?" in my mind. This is forceful and rude in my culture, but it's very rude and a no-…

> but it's very rude and a no-no in Japanese culture What, specifically, about that phrasing is "very rude" and a "no-no" in Japanese culture? I am genuinely curious.

Every culture has a way of discussing and resolving disagreements. Some are noisier and some are calmer. Some cultures do this dance with "apparent" disrespect, with forceful exchanges, some with calmer and tidier demeanor.

Japanese are the latter. There's a polite dance of disagreement. Every side listens others with respect (with respect to the process even if they don't respect the others) and answer politely yet firmly.

This comment smells like there's already some disagreement under this, and none of them have been listened and they are steamrolled with the new workflow.

Implying "Hey you're overreacting, let us convince you" doesn't help on top of it.

Re: End of Japanese community

#390

Post by bayindirh »

eecc wrote: post #384
bayindirh wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. English is also not my mother tongue, but this translates to "I'm sorry you feel like that, but we don't care or change anything, can I call you to convince you into doing things our way while completely being off the record?" in my mind. This is forceful and rude in my culture, but it's very rude and a no-…

"We want to make sure we trully (SIC) understand what you're struggling with." I'm afraid you skipped this part though

> We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with.

I mean, that question is already well answered within the first (opening) comment of marsf, so that part smells "tl;dr. Can I call you".

This sentence makes it even worse. All the pain points are openly written there.

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