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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#271

Post by hinkley »

small_scombrus wrote: post #219
lopis wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the mismstch of expectations that causes good communities to create drama. If this was Google, no one would care, as one expects Google to just do what is best for the business. But with companies like Mozilla we expect a bit better. But the truth is they are barely better and the leadership plays by the same rulebook.

People did used to have decent expectations for Google back when they at least pretended to care about the "Do no evil" tagline

It's pretty clear they've been full evil for a while. It's documented at least back to 2011 but the rest of us didn't clue in for a while after.

Re: End of Japanese community

#272

Post by hazn »

nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

Why is it condescending and patronzing? I read it as a person trying to understand the situation.

Re: End of Japanese community

#273

Post by hinkley »

thomassmith65 wrote: post #214
yigalirani wrote: post #209

If i was this guy, i would take all the translations and move them to his own independent site with proper promotion so that Japanese speaker can find it easily

I'd just begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure: https://ladybird.org/#gi

Firefox is itself someone deciding to make their own fork of mozilla. Maybe we need to do it again every ten years.

Re: End of Japanese community

#274

Post by pmontra »

numpad0 wrote: post #122
totetsu wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These ones? https://github.com/mozilla-japan/translation/wiki/L10N-Guide... Looking through that wiki there seems to be a lot of things that ML would get wrong.

lmao. This is a "research team and five years" task with current state of LLM.

Yes, but now that's the answer to questions like "how do we deploy AI without pissing off our communities?"

Re: End of Japanese community

#275

Post by rossant »

hazn wrote: post #272
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

Why is it condescending and patronzing? I read it as a person trying to understand the situation.

Same.

Re: End of Japanese community

#276

Post by hinkley »

jogu wrote: post #52

I've been studying Japanese for 15+ years and have really come to loathe machine translations from English. While generally the meaning gets across, they're very unnatural and often use words in contexts that sound weird or are just flat out wrong.

Often doesn't go great the other way either.

Re: End of Japanese community

#277

Post by port11 »

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #166

I worked on adding TLS 1.1 and 1.2 support to firefox back in the day, and the whole process left me so disappointed I asked to be removed from the list of contributors. I wish mozilla all the best, but it's not an especially well run organization and this post gives another example of why.

I submitted 2 patches during an 2018 open night to bring in more volunteers in Berlin. The actual folk there were amazing, but the review process, tooling, and bureaucracy was so upsetting that I never bothered again. I'm not sure the fixes were approved, and it wouldn't be surprising if these open nights don't convince many to contribute.

Re: End of Japanese community

#278

Post by port11 »

jesterson wrote: post #247
adeptima wrote: post #7

10+ years in Japan. The message here is much deeper from my perspective. “Let’s jump on the call” is not the solution. The guy was stripped off of his face. I love Japan for being human. Small business bar or restaurant with 3 tables. Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution… the process was pushed on his head. Google nemawashi decision making process

> Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution If you have a better solution to correct an error or solve a problem than having a call/meeting and openly discuss situation and possible resolutions - I would love to know about that.

The response was condescending and very… American. The call ensures what, that you'll be more receiving to their grievances? That nothing is on the record? A lot of people don't want to jump in calls, ever. The initial response should've validated that the community feels slighted, that they should've brought them onboard for the decision making, etc.

Acknowledging the mistake immediately seems like a good start.

Re: End of Japanese community

#279

Post by Stranger43 »

lopis wrote: post #216
Stranger43 wrote: post #169

I think a fundamental lack of understanding/humility is the core of this conflict along with Mozilla's long and storied history of creating controversies/problems out of thin air. The Mozilla leadership seems to have a unfortunate tendency to emulate the behaviors of the tech companies that their core Firefox project is often seen as an alternative too. Firefox is a good browser but is prevented from capitalizing on…

It's the mismstch of expectations that causes good communities to create drama. If this was Google, no one would care, as one expects Google to just do what is best for the business. But with companies like Mozilla we expect a bit better. But the truth is they are barely better and the leadership plays by the same rulebook.

But why does it have to be the case that the leadership of an opensource project have to emulate the desperation and authoritarianism of a potentially stagnant tech sector.

I don't think it's malevolence from the mozilla leadership team but more that if you hang around people who have bet their lifesaving on the success of cloud based LLMs, being cautious and making their use "optional" might begin to sound like a really controversial position even if that's actually what the users/community want from Mozilla.

Firefox market share have been declining and it's not easy to point to any obvious technical problem, so the reason for the decline is likely that the Mozilla corporation keep messing up the narrative by acting like just another Silicon Valley tech firm.

Re: End of Japanese community

#280

Post by haunter »

hazn wrote: post #272
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

Why is it condescending and patronzing? I read it as a person trying to understand the situation.

The person gives a clear, detailed answer in the post about their problems > "We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with"

To me that's very condescending, like someone who reads but doesn't understand

Borderline AI response

And personally offering a call is like a sidestep "lets move this problem out of the public discourse" which is especially funny considering it's about a forum

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