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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#341

Post by Aerolfos »

Stranger43 wrote: post #169

I think a fundamental lack of understanding/humility is the core of this conflict along with Mozilla's long and storied history of creating controversies/problems out of thin air. The Mozilla leadership seems to have a unfortunate tendency to emulate the behaviors of the tech companies that their core Firefox project is often seen as an alternative too. Firefox is a good browser but is prevented from capitalizing on…

>The Mozilla leadership seems to have a unfortunate tendency to emulate the behaviors of the tech companies that their core Firefox project is often seen as an alternative too.

But of course, they need "competitive" salaries so they can hire "great talent" from the tech sector so that the company doesn't fall behind or something.

Re: End of Japanese community

#342

Post by atoav »

detaro wrote: post #310
janmalec wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you form this response to make it less condensending and patronizing? I won't judge if it is patronizing or not because I'm not very good at this kind of thing but would like to understand the issue.

a) don't apologize for the other persons feelings, but for your actions that lead to it b) don't look like you are trying to take the conversation out of the community space it's happening in and/or hiding details by going to a private call (you can offer a call, but it shouldn't be the expectation) c) Acknowledge the concrete complaints made. Are you truly "struggling to understand" what someone means when they comp…

One point I'd like to add as someone who has worked in IT support for years:

Don't answer when you haven't done your homework. Either you check for yourself if what they claim has happened happened and acknowledge the fuckup or you just trust them as go on "if this is true and we have no reason not to trust you, it should never have happened".

But not understanding? The description of the incident was pretty clear. Maybe think about it and investigate till you understand what the problem is, and then answer.

Re: End of Japanese community

#343

Post by Ezhik »

danieltanfh95 wrote: post #251

It's funny how Japanese contributors often go nuclear whenever things don't go their way instead of communicating etc. Bugs happen. this is tech. open communication is always the way to go before escalation. we see the same phenomenon in git, ruby etc etc etc. Ironically, Japanese work culture encourages over-communication. It seems that open-source is considered a counter-culture that they want to escape japanese wo…

>In October 22, the sumobot was introduced to Japanese KB articles. I cannot accept its behavior and no words. [...] It has been working now without our acceptance, without controls, without communications.

How exactly did you manage to place the blame for no communication on Japanese contributors here given the actual complaint in question?

Re: End of Japanese community

#344

Post by detaro »

cma wrote: post #338
detaro wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) don't apologize for the other persons feelings, but for your actions that lead to it b) don't look like you are trying to take the conversation out of the community space it's happening in and/or hiding details by going to a private call (you can offer a call, but it shouldn't be the expectation) c) Acknowledge the concrete complaints made. Are you truly "struggling to understand" what someone means when they comp…

> Are you truly "struggling to understand" what someone means You've turned this around into a very different quote, and shouldn't use quote marks for that. They wrote: > We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. I don't like their response and agree with a lot of people in the thread it looks like they are trying to do the call to take it private. But we don't have to make up stuff.

If the post gave any acknowledgement to the already stated complaints I'd agree with you, but it does not, and that does stand out and leads to my reading.

Re: End of Japanese community

#345

Post by apexalpha »

nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this.

It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

Re: End of Japanese community

#346

Post by kuschku »

ezoe wrote: post #69
adeptima wrote: post #7

10+ years in Japan. The message here is much deeper from my perspective. “Let’s jump on the call” is not the solution. The guy was stripped off of his face. I love Japan for being human. Small business bar or restaurant with 3 tables. Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution… the process was pushed on his head. Google nemawashi decision making process

Exactly, this is just a 面子(face) problem. Also, his demanding of not using his work for AI training is nonsense. Because entire articles, this one included is published under a Creative Commons license. Didn't he agree on that? Mozilla must reject his further contribution because he stated he don't understand the term of Creative Commons license. His wish granted I guess.

Is the AI published under the same CC license, with attribution?

Re: End of Japanese community

#347

Post by rwmj »

rendaw wrote: post #194
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

It wasn't mentioned in other replies, but "jump on a quick call" also means very strongly "let's move to a place with no public record and private participation where nobody else can join in". Then later, if it comes up again, they can just say "well we discussed this in a call previously and decided it was best to do it anyway" cutting off discussion and not presenting the reasoning.

Also a call is a place where we'll try and grind you down until you agree with us.

Re: End of Japanese community

#348

Post by avhception »

CalRobert wrote: post #305
avhception wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first language is German, but I've got most of my devices set to English. Because of that, Youtube started machine-translating German video titles and audio into English at random. The audio quality is just bad, everything sounds muffled. And the translations are often complete garbage. I absolutely detest this "feature".

I’m in the Netherlands and I get ads for Bol.com on YouTube now with narration that would be more appropriate to Fitter, Happier. I’m surprised advertisers are ok with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tepztGLNYcE

I have a feeling that advertisers have yet to catch up. In Germany, the supermarket chain Lidl recently started running a pretty heavy advertisement campaign on Youtube. Of course, Youtube auto-translated the advertisement into English. The effect is really, really uncanny. "LIDL IS WORTH IT! JA!"

If I were Lidl, I'd shut that down immediately.

Re: End of Japanese community

#349

Post by atoav »

cma wrote: post #338
detaro wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) don't apologize for the other persons feelings, but for your actions that lead to it b) don't look like you are trying to take the conversation out of the community space it's happening in and/or hiding details by going to a private call (you can offer a call, but it shouldn't be the expectation) c) Acknowledge the concrete complaints made. Are you truly "struggling to understand" what someone means when they comp…

> Are you truly "struggling to understand" what someone means You've turned this around into a very different quote, and shouldn't use quote marks for that. They wrote: > We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. I don't like their response and agree with a lot of people in the thread it looks like they are trying to do the call to take it private. But we don't have to make up stuff.

Yes, but what is there to understand? A bot erased the hard work of people. That is the point.

Sure there may be more fine detail to understand around the guidelines etc, but first you should acknowledge that (A) your bot fucked up big time, (B) everybody would be pissed if years of work would be overwritten in such disrespectful manner and (C) that this isn't how you want to treat your community.

If you don't manage that this person made the right call when they decided to leave.

Re: End of Japanese community

#350

Post by edu »

apexalpha wrote: post #345
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

As somebody from Spain, I concur.
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