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Keep Android Open

keepandroidopen.org

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Re: Keep Android Open

#791

Post by fsflover »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #675
pjerem wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "just use a second phone" cannot be the answer because 99% of people will just scoff at that. Here we are talking about installing PostmarketOS/Linux on a smartphone. The next milestone is not to get everyone on it. First we need a base of early adopters that are willing to use it despite the drawbacks. The more user those alternatives will get, the more they will be developed, the better it will get. Sure, for the…

What you're saying already existed. Linux on a smartphone was called Android. It ended up where it is today. If you were to somehow make another Linux on a smartphone competitor, it too would end up where Android is today, for the same reasons.

This is just not true. Google has been directing the development of Android to maximize their profits. without such incentive, it won't be repeated.

Also, please stop with security nihilism, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27897975

Re: Keep Android Open

#792

Post by LogicHound »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #768
LogicHound wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. However if a developer isn't using Windows typically they are using a Mac. In corpo-world. Everyone is using Windows. If they are using Linux it would be through a VM or WSL. I guarantee none of those people are using Linux at home. So for every developer you know that is using Linux, there are many more people using Windows supplied to by their IT department.

> In corpo-world. Everyone is using Windows. If they are using Linux it would be through a VM or WSL. I guarantee none of those people are using Linux at home. And I guarantee that you're wrong, because I work a corporate job where I have to put up with Windows and am 99% Linux at home. (The other 1% is *BSD and illumos.)

You are the minority but you can believe whatever you like.

The vast majority of developers I have worked with (and I've contracted a lot of places) know next to next to nothing about Linux. They can barely use a terminal (Powershell, CMD, Bash/Zsh) and often can't do anything outside of the IDE.

If they do use Linux. It be on a Raspberry PI that gets stuck in a drawer after a few months.

To those that keep voting me down on this. The teams and environments you work in are the outliers. I've had to accept that I am in the minority as a Linux user even amongst software professionals.

Re: Keep Android Open

#793

Post by opan »

Arainach wrote: post #606
bluGill wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why we need to ban together. Libreoffice isn't dominate, but it has enough market share that it can't be completely ignored. Also if you are using it you are not alone - you are an annoying deviation, but there are enough of you that many cannot ignore you. The more people who also use libreoffice the more power we have. If we can get to just 5% market share we cannot be ignored. (it need not be libreoffice,…

>but it has enough market share that it can't be completely ignored. This is the Hacker News bubble in action. Most of the world, most of America, most of China, India, etc. haven't even heard of it. They ignore it and they thrive. Maybe you need to pay attention if you're dealing with certain European governments these days - I'm not sure because I completely ignore it and haven't paid attention since there was just…

I fixed a computer for some old people once who weren't the least bit technical, but they had LibreOffice installed. My guess is they found it searching "microsoft word free" or similar. A bit like how some kids end up finding Minetest/Luanti by searching "free Minecraft".

Re: Keep Android Open

#794

Post by krzyk »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #323
liendolucas wrote: post #283

I'm going to say something that probably will get me down votes: Why do we have to beg Google to keep Android open? Seriously. So many open source projects have risen out of real and concrete needs and successfully made their way into our every day lives. A new platform needs to rise that breaks out completely from Google. I've given PostmarketOS a go (with a PinePhone) and while today I can't say it isn't a daily dr…

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

And yet Linux and to lesser extent Windows and even lesser macos exist. They don't have that excessive control and we still can use bank/financial goverment and (if we enable DRM) also copyrighted media webpages (and sometimes apps).

Aside from music/video there are no obstacles for other apps to exist in open system.

Re: Keep Android Open

#795

Post by krzyk »

kube-system wrote: post #577
jayd16 wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I get an example of a single one that can't be found on the web?

Netflix? Telegram's push 2FA? Any mobile wallet application? The vast majority of dating apps? Any of the app-only social networks? Basically all keyless entry applications?

I use Netflix web version on my linux desktop all the time.

Re: Keep Android Open

#796

Post by palata »

zzo38computer wrote: post #771
palata wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Android was designed more for surveillance and consumption, than for privacy&security and the user's interests I disagree. The Android security model is better than the Linux one. I am very happy with GrapheneOS, I don't have much to complain about. The problem is that Google sucks and nobody enforces antitrust laws. But it's not just Google: how many Android manufacturers don't suck, really? Do they contribute to…

> I disagree. The Android security model is better than the Linux one. In some ways it probably is, but it still isn't that good in my opinion (although some of the problems have to do with the way the settings and controls are working rather than the security model itself, there are also problems with the security model itself too). (I think there are other problems with Android (and other operating systems) too.)

> although some of the problems have to do with the way the settings and controls are working

I was talking about the security model.

Re: Keep Android Open

#797

Post by XorNot »

zkmon wrote: post #782
TeMPOraL wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That worked fine before agricultural revolution. Since then, if you stick to your bows and arrows, you get sidelined and lose access to benefits of society and civilization.

If it forces you to keep running with more and more speed just to stay where you are, I wouldn't call it as "benefits of society and civilization". A lot of what we call as progress is a forced transformation of basic needs for the gains of business and politics not people. Even the healthcare, which everyone thinks as a "benefit" of the progress, only resulted in having lopsided demographic pyramid with countries fu…

Countries aren't full of old people because of healthcare, they're full of old people because birthrates plummeted after one of the largest generations ever was born in the post-war period.

Re: Keep Android Open

#798

Post by CuriouslyC »

MarsIronPI wrote: post #729
CuriouslyC wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think next time I upgrade my "phone" I'm going to get a gaming capable tablet with wireless and give it the steamos treatment. This gives you decent linux/windows/android interop. I already lug a small backpack around most of the time, I can leave the tablet in the bag and use buds for conversations and when I need an actual computer it'll be way better.

Hm, how do you plan on taking calls? Will you notice an incoming call even though your tablet is in the bag? (Asking because this idea sounds appealing to me as well.)

As is typical on Linux, lots of duct tape. Probably starting with https://github.com/dscripka/openWakeWord and speaking to https://github.com/rafael2k/ofono, then hacking from there.

Re: Keep Android Open

#800

Post by dns_snek »

davisr wrote: post #631
andoando wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is with someone taking your whole software, branding and marketing it as their own and undercutting your service for half the price, not individual using it for personal reasons.

So what? That sounds like competition, which is healthy in a free market. And it's not a service, it's a copy. Customers are explicitly allowed to resell it, and they have. And I still earn enough cash to continue developing it. And I have the search engine top hits. And I have thousands of social media comments linking to my website. Copying a business isn't just about copying the product. They have to copy my reput…

> So what? That sounds like competition, which is healthy in a free market.

No, it's not. Under capitalism, if Amazon could just take your book and start selling it without paying you a cent then nobody would be incentivized to write books anymore. That's the entire point of copyright.

I don't know what your business is, maybe you really carved out a niche that works for you, but it's not built on top of solid principles. I think you've just been lucky enough not to catch the wrong kind of attention because the more successful you are, the more economical it is for someone to invest resources into stealing your lunch.

If you deal with the typical consumer base then the single most important thing is always going to be the price and that's the one thing you'll never be able to compete on.

> Copying a business isn't just about copying the product.

You're really getting your wires crossed here. This "wisdom" is used to show that you can't win by simply copying someone else's winning idea. A reseller isn't copying your business, they're just reselling your product.

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