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Keep Android Open

keepandroidopen.org

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Re: Keep Android Open

#431

Post by surajrmal »

gf000 wrote: post #244
franczesko wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You just have to somehow speedrun the decades of development that went into Android to make it decently run on mobile hardware Isn't this mainly due to proprietary drivers and firmware?

No, just take a look at how long and smooth does a pinephone run with "GNU Linux" vs stock android. Android devs actually backported a bunch of work to the mainline kernel with regards to low-level energy management, but that's only one half of the story. The other is your phone stopping unused apps gracefully, and being able to go back to sleep regularly.

The vast majority which lives in android userspace. The customer compositor, input stack, wlan daemons, etc, are all tuned and optimized for power efficiency. Also, these days, there is a lot of hardware controlled directly by userspace - it's not just the GPU. And those hardware are generally important for offloading a lot of conpute and reducing wake ups. Things seem to only be trending further in this direction.

Re: Keep Android Open

#432

Post by rbits »

fsflover wrote: post #191
charcircuit wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>than for privacy&security and the user's interests. Even if that was true, AOSP is better for privacy and security than any other Linux distro.

By which criterion? This sounds wrong.

https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux.html

Re: Keep Android Open

#433

Post by bayindirh »

state_less wrote: post #407
bayindirh wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feel free to complain, but don't forget you can make choices. Of course. I can make a choice. When the choice is between being able to login to secure services with my SIM embedded e-signature, use mobile banking and conduct official business and not being able to do any of these things, making choices are easy. Running Linux on desktop is easy mode when compared to phones, and yes, I started using Linux on desktop…

I booted Slackware from a pile of floppies back then. I thought the Germans had a pretty good offering with SuSE at the time. Look I get it, even back then, most folks felt Windows was the obvious choice (and still do) for their jobs and so on. Sometimes you have to make do with with the unappealing choice in front of you. For a little more context, my cracked screen iPhone can still do banking or whatever, but I cho…

Slackware always brings out the inner teen in me. I feel giddy like in the old days. I need to install and maintain it somewhere some time, just for kicks.

I support FOSS wholeheartedly, and believe that it's possible to have a device which is completely Free (not Open but, Free) from hardware design to firmware and software.

On the other hand, there are some nasty realities which bring hard questions.

For example, radios. Radio firmware is something nasty. Give people freedom and you can't believe what you can do with it (Flipper Zero is revolutionary, but even that's a tongue in cheek device). Muck with your airspace and you create a lot of problems. The problem is not technology, but physics. So, unless you prevent things from happening, you can't keep that airspace fair to everybody.

Similar problems are present in pipelines where you need to carry information in a trusted way. In some cases open technology can guarantee this upto a certain point. To cross that point, you need to give your back to hardware. I don't believe there are many hardware security devices with open firmware.

I use MacBooks and iPhones mostly because of the hardware they bring in to the table. I got in these ecosystems knowing what I'm buying into, but I have my personal fleet of Linux desktops and servers, and all the things I develop and publish are Free Software.

I also use Apple devices because I don't want to manage another server esp. in my pocket (because I also manage lots of servers at work, so I want some piece of mind), yet using these devices doesn't change my mind into not supporting Free Software.

At the end, as I commented down there the problem is not the technology itself, but the mindset behind these. We need to change the minds and requirements. The technical changes will follow.

Re: Keep Android Open

#434

Post by surajrmal »

pjmlp wrote: post #309
preisschild wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://grapheneos.org/features#anti-persistence GrapheneOS has apex modules disabled and never had the need for that.

ART updates are distributed via APEX since Android 12. So is it stuck in Java 12?

I believe it's similar to kernel modules in that they can either be compiled into the kernel or distributed separately. Graphene probably just distributes it as part of the system images. This just means rollouts are coupled. Apex doesn't imply closed source, only that there is a stable surface that allows more modular updates.

Re: Keep Android Open

#435

Post by TeMPOraL »

dangus wrote: post #419
state_less wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in '99 Linux didn't run Excel/Word/Powerpoint or most games, but I ran it anyway. What others call showstoppers are for me inconveniences. I have a motorolla edge 2024 that I'll load whatever open source phone OS will work well enough to place calls and browse the web. I'll keep another phone for the rare times some corporate/government overlord requires it. Many folks who refuse to use smartphones, similarly ow…

Bingo, this right here. Linux desktop wasn’t a daily driver until one day it was. Although the only problem with this strategy is that Linux got that way because of a lot of private companies that actually wanted that. Valve didn’t want to be locked in with Microsoft. Many of Microsoft’s direct competitors also don’t want to be locked in. IBM famously switched to Mac, Google has been using Mac and Linux workstations…

It's a transient state. Food for thought: how much of Linux being a daily driver depends on you having a modern Android or iOS smartphone?

If you need a locked down phone that passes remote attestation to authenticate yourself to a remote service, then whatever you use to access the service UI doesn't really matter: the only device that's necessary to have to use the service is the one you don't fully control, and which gets to control your patterns of use.

An intuition pump I like: imagine you want to put a widget on your desktop that always shows you the current balance of your bank account. You want it to just work ~forever after initial authentication (or at least a couple weeks between any reauth), and otherwise not require any manual interaction. See how hard it is (if it's even possible), and you'll know how badly you're being disempowered already.

Re: Keep Android Open

#436

Post by candiddevmike »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #405
vbezhenar wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bank had website which I can log in and just use. It does not force me to install anything. I need to type username, password and SMS code, that's about it.

Because your bank isn't even trying to be secure, relative to what's considered industry standard. Be grateful while it lasts.

Why do you think their bank "isn't even trying to be secure"?

Re: Keep Android Open

#437

Post by WaitWaitWha »

ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #381
CuriouslyC wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with using bank/financial services/media via the web. Other stuff can be emulated. Hopefully I'll never have to buy another closed phone.

This is only until the only 2FA solutions that the bank requires you to use to log in and authorize transactions only come as smartphone apps.

to your point, not exactly a one-to-one, but several discount airlines (e.g., RyanAir, PLAY, Allegiant, Frontier, Spirit, Wizz, Flair, AirAsia) already require an app to check in for a flight, or pay a fee. No app (or the horrors, no mobile), it cannot be done on a regular computer, must go to a ticket counter and pay a fee.

Re: Keep Android Open

#438

Post by jb1991 »

rezonant wrote: post #73
jb1991 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know what it was like back then but in today’s world you do not need to pay Apple any fees if all you’re doing is writing software in Xcode and deploy it to your own device. You do need a developer account, the free version of one, but you only need to pay the fee if you’re going to publish on the App Store.

Free provisioning: If you do not pay the developer fee an app installed via Xcode will work for 7 days. Afterwards the app on your phone will *stop working*, and you must open Xcode on your Mac again, and push a new build to your phone if you want to keep using it. Paid provisioning: If you have paid the developer fee, a build will expire based on the amount of time left before that payment renews, so if you build an…

I've been doing it that way for years on the free account, never seemed like a bother to me. I usually have a tweak I want to make to the code anyway. But I suppose some might find it inconvenient.

In any case, to say you can't put your own apps on your phone without paying a fee is incorrect, which is the comment I was responding to.

Re: Keep Android Open

#439

Post by throwaway902984 »

torben-friis wrote: post #425
BeetleB wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Most of us do not want to carry two phones around. The reality is that there is strong utility for those non-open apps and they will never be replaced by open ones. In some parts of the world, WhatsApp is as necessary as the phone itself. Official business is conducted via it.

Communication is the main issue - If you've got whatsapp/telegram/whatever,and a couple others you can handle your own life differently without human interaction being affected. The rest is a personal choice, I'm happy to have a bit higher friction to check my bank's balance for example. Maps is an issue but it can be overcome.

Accessibility is a big issue. The accessibility some of the apps like banking provide are compelling. - not totally unlike the difference between stairs and a ramp.

Re: Keep Android Open

#440

Post by tonyhart7 »

ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #387
smaudet wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do we have to beg Google to keep Android open? Seriously. Because the market has failed, and we have a duopoly. There are many reasons for that, but, this is the exact sort of time a govt must step in - when something becomes a utility, it needs to be regulated as such. I agree, I don't really want to enshrine Google/Apple into law, however if they are makers of an operating system that is used like a common ut…

Unfortunately western governments are moving to impose more and more control over our digital life, and I think they see a locked down commercial platform as a convenient means to that end because they can regulate it. If the EU commission ever succeeds in passing Chat Control, which requires client side scanning on all devices, then it is very convenient for them if people do not use open source operating systems wh…

right, government literally side with them if any

open hardware/platform is impossible if they mandate all chat is exported to gov anyway

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