Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Keep Android Open

keepandroidopen.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 907 posts

Re: Keep Android Open

#371

Post by pjerem »

fooqux wrote: post #358
1gn15 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bank apps: Use an ATM, or a second phone. Enterprise apps: Use a second phone, preferably paid for by work. Government apps: Use a second phone, or refuse to use it (since there's likely elderly whom are not on board yet). Copyrighted media: Piracy.

"just use a second phone" cannot be the answer because 99% of people will just scoff at that. Instead of buying a second phone, why not just buy one that works? And that's to say nothing of the environmental impact.

> "just use a second phone" cannot be the answer because 99% of people will just scoff at that.

Here we are talking about installing PostmarketOS/Linux on a smartphone. The next milestone is not to get everyone on it. First we need a base of early adopters that are willing to use it despite the drawbacks. The more user those alternatives will get, the more they will be developed, the better it will get.

Sure, for the next years, it will be way behind Android or iOS in terms of ease of use, but that's the price to pay to get back control on the device you own that is probably the main computer you use everyday.

For me that's not worse than using Linux in the early 2000s, and like Linux in the early 2000s, it may even be _fun_ to be an early adopter of Linux on the smartphone.

Now we don't need to migrate everyone to PostmarketOS, we _just_ need an alternative OS for at least the ones who are willing to play with it.

Re: Keep Android Open

#372

Post by smaudet »

liendolucas wrote: post #283

I'm going to say something that probably will get me down votes: Why do we have to beg Google to keep Android open? Seriously. So many open source projects have risen out of real and concrete needs and successfully made their way into our every day lives. A new platform needs to rise that breaks out completely from Google. I've given PostmarketOS a go (with a PinePhone) and while today I can't say it isn't a daily dr…

> Why do we have to beg Google to keep Android open? Seriously.

Because the market has failed, and we have a duopoly. There are many reasons for that, but, this is the exact sort of time a govt must step in - when something becomes a utility, it needs to be regulated as such.

I agree, I don't really want to enshrine Google/Apple into law, however if they are makers of an operating system that is used like a common utility, they should be regulated as such.

Re: Keep Android Open

#373

Post by graemep »

bigfishrunning wrote: post #349
aNoob7000 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why individuals expect a corporation like Google, driven by profits, to give a sh*t. I would expect no less of Apple with IOS. Individuals should look for and support alternatives. I'm currently working on a desktop running Ubuntu because I want an alternative to the duopoly of Windows and macOS. Additionally, we should support open-source alternatives with our donations. I personally donate money…

If you're worried about a for-profit company having sway over your computer, Ubuntu is not really the choice to make. Please consider running upstream Debian; there are very few downsides, but the upside is that it is run by an organization that is not (and never will be) driven by profits. Also, it seems a little silly to donate to Ubuntu, which is maintained by a for-profit company.

> If you're worried about a for-profit company having sway over your computer, Ubuntu is not really the choice to make.

Why not? The point is not to not have anything supplied by a business. The point is to avoid being controlled by a business.

Ubuntu does not have the same hold over your computer that Google has over your phone. The software is open source. You can switch distros easily as it does not have lock-in.

Re: Keep Android Open

#375

Post by smaudet »

ethbr1 wrote: post #327
MarsIronPI wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the benefits of mobile GNU/Linux distros is that it is possible to run Android apps on them. Waydroid works well. The one catch is that it can be difficult to trick certain picky apps into running on an "unsecured" device.

> The one catch is that it can be difficult to trick certain picky apps into running on an "unsecured" device. Imho, this is where we should fight for regulation. "All mobile apps must allow the user to acknowledge the risks of running on an unsecured platform, but then launch normally" Couple it with a liability shield for user security issues, if the user acknowledges risk. The real Android lock-in is the universe…

Eh, I disagree.

You can never catch all "bad actors". Sure, you can make a best effort, but govts are not efficient/usually work better at doing one thing, not 100 - they should be regulating the common platform not all actors on it.

Anyways, that's just as bad as what Google's trying to do.

> that, through developer laziness, refuse to launch on alternative platforms.

Android Dev is (relatively) quite difficult. The code and UI elements do not translate easily to other platforms. If a solitary developer (keep in mind, they may be a volunteer doing things in their free time, or just someone scratching a personal itch) does not then go out, purchase multiple other pieces of hardware, and write the application on multiple other platforms, that is not "developer laziness", rather that is a high cost to entry creating practical hurdles.

Re: Keep Android Open

#376

Post by TeMPOraL »

state_less wrote: post #356
TeMPOraL wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

Back in '99 Linux didn't run Excel/Word/Powerpoint or most games, but I ran it anyway. What others call showstoppers are for me inconveniences. I have a motorolla edge 2024 that I'll load whatever open source phone OS will work well enough to place calls and browse the web. I'll keep another phone for the rare times some corporate/government overlord requires it. Many folks who refuse to use smartphones, similarly ow…

Technology has a ratchet effect at scale - as a solution becomes widely adopted, it switches from being a convenience to being a necessity, because people start building more stuff on top of it. It's as true of to-the-minute accurate clocks as it is of smartphone banking.

You can still run a version of Word from 2004. It's fine, if all you need is to write some thoughts down for yourself. But the moment you need to collaborate with other people via a Word document, you'll find it difficult without the modern version with all its user-hostile aspects - and more importantly, other people will find you difficult to work with.

Same applies to other software, web and smartphones, and to everything else in life - the further you deviate from the mainstream, the costlier it is for you. Deviate too much, and you just become a social outcast.

Re: Keep Android Open

#377

Post by kube-system »

VagabundoP wrote: post #231
codedokode wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, for "anything over 5 years old" you can probably find a privilege escalation exploit.

That might get you root but not a bootloader unlock.

There are privilege escalation CVEs in bootloader code too. I remember unlocking some very early locked bootloaders this way in the early days of android.

Re: Keep Android Open

#378

Post by CuriouslyC »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #323
liendolucas wrote: post #283

I'm going to say something that probably will get me down votes: Why do we have to beg Google to keep Android open? Seriously. So many open source projects have risen out of real and concrete needs and successfully made their way into our every day lives. A new platform needs to rise that breaks out completely from Google. I've given PostmarketOS a go (with a PinePhone) and while today I can't say it isn't a daily dr…

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

I'm fine with using bank/financial services/media via the web. Other stuff can be emulated.

Hopefully I'll never have to buy another closed phone.

Re: Keep Android Open

#379

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

ecef9-8c0f-4374 wrote: post #351
ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works only as long as the webapp allows you to log in using a username/password and/or 2FA which is not tied to a smartphone app. More and more countries are moving to digital identity solutions, and while many of them offer hardware tokens as alternatives to apps, the future looks like one where smartphone apps will be only option.

Banking websites will tell you that you need 2FA. Of course you need to use not just any 2FA you need to use their app and of course you don't need a 2FA if you use the app directly for banking. My companys equity app does not even want to run on lineageos. At the moment it looks like a 2 phone will be necessary at some point.

For now, my banking app actually runs on GrapheneOS. My digital identity app that it requires to log in does not, but luckily my government also offers an NFC chip that I can just scan instead.

Two phones is such an unsatisfactory solution because it will be too impractical, too expensive, or both, for the vast majority of people.

Re: Keep Android Open

#380

Post by Chipshuffle »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #323
liendolucas wrote: post #283

I'm going to say something that probably will get me down votes: Why do we have to beg Google to keep Android open? Seriously. So many open source projects have risen out of real and concrete needs and successfully made their way into our every day lives. A new platform needs to rise that breaks out completely from Google. I've given PostmarketOS a go (with a PinePhone) and while today I can't say it isn't a daily dr…

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

I wonder, if there were an open platform to exist that people use increasingly, maybe that would be incentive enough for at least one bank/financial app to permit that platform just to get a competitive advantage.

In the meantime probably the best that can be done is having a regular phone and a banking phone.

Post reply on HN