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PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

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Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#811
post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect what happened is that a generation of professionals went through university systems where racial preferences were practiced openly I feel like you're ignoring that racial preferences were practiced openly for the entirety of the existence of the university systems in the US. It's just that for almost all of time, the preference was for "white non-Jews" (where "white" was historically malleable: Benjamin F…

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 banned that and it was awhile before the discrimination was rebooted to run in the opposite direction.

Marijuana was made illegal in 1937 and it stopped being used completely for the next 70 years.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#812
post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programming is a complex intellectual activity so it’s pretty clear that not only is there not a simple biological factor but there isn’t even a single test which would allow for there to be one. People have a wide range of skills used to find success in different areas and even if some of the low-level cognitive skills that have been speculated about such as ability to rotate 3-D shapes turned out to have a geneti…

I definitely agree it’s a problem. I haven’t seen any evidence supporting the idea that it’s innate rather than social in origin. Human neuroplasticity is our species’ big defining trait so it seems far more likely that we have a complex mix of feedback loops based on socialization.

I'm not sure its really a "problem". Why does everything have to be 50/50 ?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my previous comment about what exactly rubs me the wrong way, so here's an analogy: imagine you went to school and the the teacher lined everyone up by gender and handed out a cookie to everyone. And then she handed out two extra cookies to all of the girls! You would be annoyed! Does it matter that back at home guys normally get 4 extra cookies every day? No, because as a guy, you don't see o…

Imagine the teacher lines up all the kids, gives them cookies, notices all the kids are boys, so the teacher puts up a sign outside the girls restroom advertising free cookies for anyone who attends math class. Now the boys have cookies and the girls have cookies. Except the cookies are not actually cookies, they just represent what you'll learn by attending the class. That is out reach. I don't see jocks complaining…

> But guys famously will complain about: > 1. Women reading science fiction > 2. Women watching science fiction on TV. > 3. Women playing d&d > 4. Women playing online games > 5. Women writing code.

In your head? The first two are specially absurd. How would anyone know what women watch or read in their houses?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it shouldn't be hard for you to say something other than 'do your own research'

Actually it took me almost an hour to re-do a portion of the research and lay it out, which I did further down the thread, if you care to look. Also you didn't ask me to link you to my sources, you asked me what my sources were. I answered your question directly in the best way I could at the time. Expecting an internet stranger to spend an hour digging up sources for you, when you don't ask respectfully or with any…

I appreciate that you took the time to follow through with sources to support your claim.

You & I definitely have different definitions of "not hard to find", however.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#815

> The PSF is a relatively small organization, operating with an annual budget of around $5 million per year, with a staff of just 14. This might be the bigger story. How many trillions of dollars depend on Python? Yes, I mean trillion. Those market caps didn't skyrocket on nothing. A lot of ML systems run on Python. A lot of ML systems are first implemented in Python. Even with more complicated backends a Python laye…

The PYthon Software Foundation does not develop Python. They manage the package repository, do marketing pro-Python, and distribute money among people they like (in theory to promote the language).

10 of the 13 people of their staff doesn’t even know how to write a hello world program https://www.python.org/psf/records/staff/

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just “my ideology.” The universities and corporations that practice DEI do not believe they discriminate against people in the present. They see it as a remedy for historical discrimination. It’s also not even an ideological matter. It’s a testable fact. There’s very little evidence that universities and corporations are discriminating against non-whites/asians.

So if admission rates are below population averages, is it your contention that: 1. Fewer minorities *want* to go to college -- what do you think causes that bias? 2. Minorities want to go to college, but due to factors of their environment are less able to make it to college -- what do you think leads to that inability? 3. Minorities want to go to college, and their environment is just as supportive of that goal as…

My contention is that the evidence of discrimination against (non-asian) minorities in universities is non-existent. I don’t have an opinion to what’s causing admissions rates to be different than population averages. If someone proves that it’s caused by discrimination against minorities, then we have laws to address that and I’d support enforcing those laws.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hint: if everyone has such anecdotes, they are no longer anecdotes.

It's enough to show that something isn't ultra rare, but it's not enough to show whether it's happening at 0.1% of companies or 90% of companies or where in between. If someone is racist in a manner that's outweighed 10:1 by opposite racist practices, that's something we do want to stop, but it shouldn't be top priority and definitely shouldn't be treated as the example of what racism looks like these days.

There is very little evidence of those “opposite racist practices” that are supposedly 10 times more common, at least in large corporations and universities. Microsoft was out there promising to double the percentage of black executives. Where is the big corporations promising to double the number of white executives?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's crazy. I think a lot of people see it as a question of "how can we give the PSF (or orgs like it) more money" but I see it a bit differently. Basically if something like Python can arise and become so effective and useful in so many ways with so little funding (and even less in earlier stages), it suggests that money isn't really the bottleneck here. What we need are people doing good work with good motives…

That is another great point. I do see a lot of companies trying to cut corners and make things as cheap as possible but I fundamentally believe that this ends up increasing costs in the long run. Which is a bit weird since I know a lot of business people and most seem to be familiar with Boot Theory[0] and even agree with it. But maybe it is one of those things that is just not realized in practice. Yet I constantly…

> Maybe in the quarter, but not long term. It's a sustainable strategy if you've monopolized the market though...

It's also a sustainable strategy if the market has become so distorted that it's difficult for consumers to distinguish the good products from the bad. This is a pervasive problem these days. It may still be the case that a good pair of boots will last you 10 years, but how can you tell which pair is the good one? There are 10,000 brands, all of them have 4.7 star ratings because of bots, most of them have a picture that looks nothing like what you'll receive, and if they wear out in two years you'll have no recourse because the brand was just a facade over a "ghost workshop" that's now producing the same crap under another name. Trying to vote with your dollars is like pushing on a rope.

> When in reality, if you have a lot of "rockstar programmers" they should be able to mostly manage themselves.

I'm not so sure about this. There are many people who are good at doing things but not at organizing that activity in a coherent way (especially across a team). Also when the people doing the "real work" are also managing, they often have a tendency to give the managing short shrift because they'd rather do the "real work".

I agree we could do with a lot fewer managers than we currently have, but I think we do need some. (And this isn't just about software, it's about companies and organizations in general.) But I think we would be better off with more democratized company structures where the managers' power ultimately rests on the consent of the workers, so that when you have these clashes that currently result in "half the staff resigned in protest" they would instead result in "the CEO was fired due to lack of support from the staff".

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#819
post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else are they going to balance out all the legacy admissions?

Why does an hard working non-legacy white boy deserve less of a shot than a non-legacy black one? Why should he be penalized because someone else’s father with a comparable skin tan was accepted 25 years ago?

43% of all white students at Harvard are legacy, athletes, directly related to faculty, or have family that donated to the university. That number falls to 16% or lower for black, latino, and asian students.

75% of that aforementioned group of white students would not have been admitted had it been based on merit. 70 percent of all legacy applicants are white, compared with 40 percent of all applicants who do not fall under those categories.

Why does the average applicant need to be penalized when their grandparents legally could not attend these institutions? I think it's pretty obvious why people have such reactions to DEI when it's literally just "legacies for people who legally were barred from participating".

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1060361

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's enough to show that something isn't ultra rare, but it's not enough to show whether it's happening at 0.1% of companies or 90% of companies or where in between. If someone is racist in a manner that's outweighed 10:1 by opposite racist practices, that's something we do want to stop, but it shouldn't be top priority and definitely shouldn't be treated as the example of what racism looks like these days.

There is very little evidence of those “opposite racist practices” that are supposedly 10 times more common, at least in large corporations and universities. Microsoft was out there promising to double the percentage of black executives. Where is the big corporations promising to double the number of white executives?

As mentioned a couple comments up, something like this: https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/A-Discri... is way more impactful then some CEO choices.

I can't find the Microsoft thing, but apparently among fortune 500 companies only 1.6% of CEOs are black. Even double that would still be an extremely low number. So unless you think some truly cosmic random odds happened here, that 1.6% is evidence of lots of racism.

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