PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program • Hacker News Board

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#671

Post by cycomanic » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 9:35 AM UTC

renlo wrote: post #551

epistasis wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "this quarter, we only have headcount for 'diverse' candidates", Such a statement from those with hiring authority is highly illegal. Any HR department that would let this message be delivered, either explicitly or implicitly, would open the company to massive lawsuits, such as the one you linked to. It's as bad as allowing sexual harassment. Linking the term DEI to illegal hiring practices is like linking having a…

Most eye opening experience in my personal development was attending HR conferences (we sold an HR product but I am an engineer), where speakers were openly saying this out loud. I know you won’t believe me given your statement, but using codewords they said they were trying to hire “diverse candidates”, retain “diverse candidates”, explicitly mark “non-diverse candidates” leaving as non-regrettable churn, filtering…

It's funny how everyone brings up all these anecdotes, but then the reality is that there are plenty of studies that show that if your name is associated with being black you have much lower chances to be invited to an interview.

So seems like all this talk by HR people didn't really change any hiring practices. It's also funny how everyone is outraged by the DEI programs, instead of the real discrimination that is happening in hiring.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#672

Post by baobabKoodaa » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 9:37 AM UTC

1121redblackgo wrote: post #406

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the exact same political absurdist talking point, just swapping "DEI" for "America First". Come on.

Go down to their next comments...It clarifies that they are not joking.

Where? The comment about foreign aid? No it doesn't clarify that they were joking.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#673

Post by alistairSH » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 9:46 AM UTC

jchw wrote: post #571

epistasis wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "this quarter, we only have headcount for 'diverse' candidates", Such a statement from those with hiring authority is highly illegal. Any HR department that would let this message be delivered, either explicitly or implicitly, would open the company to massive lawsuits, such as the one you linked to. It's as bad as allowing sexual harassment. Linking the term DEI to illegal hiring practices is like linking having a…

> Linking the term DEI to illegal hiring practices is like linking having a male manager to sexual harassment. Obviously, it is not fair to discredit all DEI initiatives simply because some of them (possibly a small minority of them) have lead to illegal hiring practices, but it is nonetheless an issue that it happens. That's obviously still true even if it seems entirely antithetical to the point of said initiatives…

How much of an issue it really is we can only really postulate, though.

Between the Labor Dept and various think-tanks/economic research groups, there should/could be data.

I suspect there are a small number of very public MegaCorps doing illegal DEI and that’s enough to illicit the backlash we’re seeing.

I know from my own employer, DEI is about outreach during recruiting and a combination of training for all employees and providing opportunities for people to gather and talk (via coffee talks and round tables that with DEI topics, but open to all).

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#674

Post by cycomanic » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 9:47 AM UTC

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #640

kelnos wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is how DEI should work, and probably does in some, or maybe many, cases. It's hard to take these sorts of complaints seriously unless you can quantify in what percentage of cases we get the bad kind of DEI you describe. Sure, if 90% of DEI is discriminatory hiring practices, then sure, that's a problem. But if it's 10% instead, then we should certainly call it out, but we should accept that, in any kind of ini…

Given that it was technically illegal (but IMO very common) back then, it's hard to quantify. Usually, they were smart enough to not put the most blatant parts in writing, and of course the same HR departments pushing this were also doing outreach. All that I can say is that the form of DEI that I, myself, saw and experienced certainly included a lot of the "bad" form, people were justifying it (and some still are in…

If it really was this common how come that the percentages of e.g. blacks in tech jobs didn't actually change significantly. I mean if you listen to people here it sounds like companies were absolutely flooded by DEI hires.

It is also quite telling how everyone is up in arms about these discriminatory hiring practices, but the same people don't bat an eyelash about the fact that discrimination happens mostly the other way, I don't know how many studies I've read that showed that cv's with names associated with certain ethnicities have much lower chances to be invited to interview than the same cv with a white name.

> Even with the current backlash, at least I don't have the impression that proponents of DEI will be ostracized and/or fired just for daring to suggest it.

Have you read the actual article?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#675

Post by WesolyKubeczek » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 9:56 AM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #671

renlo wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most eye opening experience in my personal development was attending HR conferences (we sold an HR product but I am an engineer), where speakers were openly saying this out loud. I know you won’t believe me given your statement, but using codewords they said they were trying to hire “diverse candidates”, retain “diverse candidates”, explicitly mark “non-diverse candidates” leaving as non-regrettable churn, filtering…

It's funny how everyone brings up all these anecdotes, but then the reality is that there are plenty of studies that show that if your name is associated with being black you have much lower chances to be invited to an interview. So seems like all this talk by HR people didn't really change any hiring practices. It's also funny how everyone is outraged by the DEI programs, instead of the real discrimination that is h…

Hint: if everyone has such anecdotes, they are no longer anecdotes.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#676

Post by cycomanic » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 10:00 AM UTC

lan321 wrote: post #659

adriand wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI is not standardized. Organizations can seek various outcomes using various means. Redacting the names of job applicants, so as to eliminate discrimination based on gender and ethnicity, is an example of DEI that does not afford special privileges to any group at all. It simply removes the special, unearned privileges from certain groups. I agree that not every unequal outcome is the result of discrimination. But…

Anonymizing names and such is fine/good but the whole push for equal net worth, etc is IMO bad. Granting assistance exclusively to people below the median is equal to punishing those above the median. And if you start adding race, gender, etc it gets even worse. And adding history makes it even more so. Historically everyone has fucked over everyone at some point and many versions exist for many events. The status qu…

> And adding history makes it even more so. Historically everyone has fucked over everyone at some point and many versions exist for many events.

You obviously don't believe we should forget everything in the past, otherwise what does prevent me from taking your stuff today and tomorrow when you come back with the police I'd argue it's in the past "and everyone fucked over everyone at some point". So the question then becomes how far back should we go. Sure you can just say as far as it benefits me, but that is not a solution that works on the scale of a society is it?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#677

Post by koolba » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 10:02 AM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #648

rayiner wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Then we made it illegal, but universities started doing it in the other direction. That’s the timeframe relevant to my point, which is about the people who made the illegal hiring decisions in 2020. They went to universities in the 21st century, not in 1945.

How else are they going to balance out all the legacy admissions?

Why does an hard working non-legacy white boy deserve less of a shot than a non-legacy black one? Why should he be penalized because someone else’s father with a comparable skin tan was accepted 25 years ago?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#678

Post by WesolyKubeczek » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 10:07 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #643

th wrote: post #341

It seems like a number of the "DEI is anti-merit discrimination" messages in this thread are overlooking how DEI work usually works. A relevant tweet from 2016 ( https://x.com/jessicamckellar/status/737299461563502595 ): > Hello from your @PyCon Diversity Chair. % PyCon talks by women: (2011: 1%), (2012: 7%), (2013: 15%), (2014/15: 33%), (2016: 40%). #pycon2016 Increased diversity in communities usually comes from ac…

I personally agree with the PSF that the risk of weird political things happening is too high to risk taking the money under any circumstances. And I have no objection at all if they want to have whoever at PyCon. But there is a double-perspective in the situation you are describing - if this is an unbiased selection process that could reasonably turn up 98% male speakers could be classified as a DEI program. 98% mal…

Would be fun to also pull up the metric of how many “devrel”, “developer evangelists”, and other professional PR talkers got the stage — versus the actual programmers.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#679

Post by nroets » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 10:07 AM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #545

th wrote: post #341

It seems like a number of the "DEI is anti-merit discrimination" messages in this thread are overlooking how DEI work usually works. A relevant tweet from 2016 ( https://x.com/jessicamckellar/status/737299461563502595 ): > Hello from your @PyCon Diversity Chair. % PyCon talks by women: (2011: 1%), (2012: 7%), (2013: 15%), (2014/15: 33%), (2016: 40%). #pycon2016 Increased diversity in communities usually comes from ac…

> unusually homogenous communities Which can be socioeconomic rather than racial.. It’s hard to break into the club of people who know CEOs or have parents or relatives who are VPs of major companies and can provide access for startups by people they know, for example.

No, it's not hard compared having a good combination of STEM and marketing skills. Many emigrants to the US had no or very few connections: Elon Musk, Sergei Brin, a long list of Indians, Chinese and other Asians.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#680

Post by stackbutterflow » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 10:14 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #630

userbinator wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the FAA ATC hiring controversy. https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-...

Everything I've read (that isn't from a blubbering MAGA source) suggests that the "controversy" is entirely manufactured.

Every single time. You look into the source and realize that there's nothing behind the claims.

It's like some people really want to feel angry and accept the most vague or fabricated statements as real facts.

But anytime you sit down and try to go the root of the issue in good faith you realize they really was nothing. Best you can find is someone on Twitter that said something stupid and then they use it as if that means there's a whole apparatus enforcing national wide policy based on that person's tweet.