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Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

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Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try as much as possible to stay out of politics and believe in merit. If someone advances their career through merit, I will be the first to celebrate with them. But at the same time, I do not believe in the power of "let's have a coffee" in a situation like this. There are core beliefs that a cup of coffee will not change. If someone believes in playing dirty, believes in that basic respect is earned not given, an…

Lots of assumptions you're making there. Better to just have the cup of coffee and see. You'd be surprised how easy it is to disarm people with kindness, you should try it.

It's not your responsibility to fix it.

Just like if someone showed up drunk at work, showing up with an unacceptable behavior should be seen in a similar lens.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#82
Been there, got the scars.

First thing, explain to them in writing how their behaviour impacts the team as a collective, not just you specifically.

If the behaviour persists, put them on a performance improvement plan. Specifically outline the behaviour that needs to change and importantly: hold the whole team to the same standard and scrutiny.

Three outcomes in order of likelihood:

- they take the hint and leave

- they improve enough to get the PIP off them

- you have justification for disciplinary actions including termination.

It’s a drain on your time and energy, but it’s a sure fire way to create an actionable record of this employees bad behaviour.

Make sure your boss and your skip-level are aware you’re taking this action - there’s nothing they can do to stop you doing it, and if they’re genuine they’ll appreciate that you’re putting in the effort to set this guy straight.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#83
post #53

A slight left-field suggestion, but have you tried asking this 'competent jerk' if he wants to go for a coffee (or pint, depending on your culture)? He might just not be aware he's being a jerk, have you tried having a casual, non-confrontational chat with him and raising your concerns? ie "I respect you as an engineer but you can be difficult to work with sometimes" Maybe he just isn't aware? Sometimes you just need…

The guy clearly is an underperformer that knows he cannot win through merit and instead wants to win by playing dirty. Do not reward aggression towards you with attention and empathy. You have to stay away from such people. The guy is likely someone with behavioral issues, bad personality traits and the undermining/sabotage could be a sign of a low skill workplace psychopath trying to manipulate and create a psychopa…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of assumptions you're making there. Better to just have the cup of coffee and see. You'd be surprised how easy it is to disarm people with kindness, you should try it.

It's not your responsibility to fix it. Just like if someone showed up drunk at work, showing up with an unacceptable behavior should be seen in a similar lens.

Not about responsibility. Just makes your life easier.

Noone is saying it's acceptable, just offering advice on how to mitigate the situation.

Should is the keyword of your last sentence. In a perfect world sure, but the world is not that.

You never know, you may even become friends. Doesn't hurt to attempt once at least.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#86

Life's too short-- tell your manager you can't work like this. You resign unless something is done about it. If they value you, something will be done about it.

Pretty much everything else about my job is basically my dream job. I don't think the "it's him or me" position will work out, especially given I'm more two levels more senior. I think that would just cause me to lose a lot of trust either way. I'd rather fix his behavior, or have him encouraged to move teams without me threatening to leave.

From what I've read in this thread, you don't have a ton of power with regards to meaningfully dealing with this guy. As far as I can tell, your only real course of action is to learn to live with him.

I've worked with many people like this. Personally, I've always landed with curt, minimal responses, such as:

- Them: says mean/passive-aggressive thing

- Me: "Noted, thanks." And then I move onto the next thing.

It's only exhausting if you let it be. I know that might feel dismissive to you, but really: it's all about how you frame it. Be no more angry with this guy for being a dick than you would with a dog for barking (it's in its nature) or a baby for crying (it's in its nature) or for the sky raining (it's in its nature).

“When you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly...[I] have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own - not of the same blood and birth, but the same mind...and so none of them can hurt me. No one can implicate me in ugliness. Nor can I feel angry at my relative, or hate him. We were born to work together like feet, hands and eyes, like the two rows of teeth, upper and lower. To obstruct each other is unnatural. To feel anger at someone, to turn your back on him: these are unnatural.” - Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#87
post #53

A slight left-field suggestion, but have you tried asking this 'competent jerk' if he wants to go for a coffee (or pint, depending on your culture)? He might just not be aware he's being a jerk, have you tried having a casual, non-confrontational chat with him and raising your concerns? ie "I respect you as an engineer but you can be difficult to work with sometimes" Maybe he just isn't aware? Sometimes you just need…

This 100x. But it's not for everyone. If like me you are not good at social stuff it is hard to just get on this casual level and say "so what's been going on? those deadlines amirite?" to who you think is your enemy but it can lead to very nice results and +100 social XP Maybe it turns out he is nice and all you need is to treat him so like he feels he's respected by you. Give him important jobs etc. It's easier aft…

I've had mixed success with this. It works when you have a nice person going through a tough time in their life who doesn't realise they are reacting badly to everything. I don't think that applies here because this person seems to believe their rudeness is justifiable.

A habit of being an asshole is not cost effective to fix. And giving validation to their belief that they should have "important jobs" just gives them real power to bully you more.

Instead of rewarding bad behaviour, they need an unambiguous dressing down from someone they respect, and a PIP. But IME it's a waste of time, rip the bandaid off and get someone with better default settings.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now how do I deal with an engineer who seems to be brilliant - though this is sometimes hard to gauge since code quality can be subjective - who always leaps in to answer things quicker and is loved by upper management because he, I guess, constantly codes even outside of work hours, but who is extremely grating to get along with. Lord I need a different job.

That sounds very familiar to me... I know of a guy like that, who will rapidly jump on and propose and implement half-baked "tactical" solutions to any production incident. As you say, he is valued by management, because he is very responsive, at all hours, and always has some kind of snake oil "fix" to offer for any problem, and generally maintains a bit of a "mad scientist" vibe. The issue is that, most of his "fix…

Great insight and advice I need to take - your description captures my current situation almost to a tee, better than I’ve been able to understand it for myself, so thank you.

In addition to what you described, in my case this engineer quickly recognizes other highly-effective and/or important people, and aggressively tries to build that reputation by privately messaging and even privately demoing work where the recipient has some stake in the outcome.

I would onboard him to a project, sharing all of my tools, key contacts and personal insights, e.g.

“our manager Smith is hinting that there is a big customer interested in X capability, which I’ve discussed with their power user Wilson and product owner Flores informally in recent demos. I think we could use Y approach and want to start prototyping if we get the go-ahead”

This engineer would start messaging Flores, Wilson and Smith privately and schedule calls about X excluding me and other core maintainers to push the thing forward, often proposing Y in his own words.

This strategy worked wonders for him in terms of upward movement. He is a diligent and extremely responsive to important people. But the strong engineers from whom he has effectively stolen credit, or even the opportunity to have a seat at the table in critical early discussions, obviously resent it.

His direct manager is lackadaisical and basically just gets bombarded by this engineer asking for frequent, long 1-1 calls where he shares “his” accomplishments and ideas. I’ve watched this play out in person (we are a remote-only team except for big project-related events) — his manager clearly trying to leave the event after it concluded, keys in hand and facing his car door, everyone else has said goodbye and given space, and this engineer keeps him there talking for no less than 10 more minutes.

I’ve never met someone so comically ambitious and overzealous to be seen as the MVP He was promoted in record time, much to the frustration of stronger and more critical maintainers.

I am baffled by the whole thing, and just laugh at this point. My most charitable interpretation of manager’s actions are that they do recognize the dynamic, and just don’t care because ultimately their job is slightly easier for the meantime. But if any 2+ of the critical core maintainers split in frustration, the whole thing will suffer, badly

ETA: it seems to me that remote-only teams are particularly susceptible to this kind of thing getting out of hand, because the capacity for secret communication is immensely greater

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#90

> was told by a previous director that he was meant to be the lead of this platform. Hence the fighting with the other lead from a year ago. And with me over the past year. Have you (or higher ups) pointed out his immaturity and behavior are likely the exact reasons he wasn’t selected to lead the team, and if he continues on this path he is ensuring he will never advance at the company? That could do one of two thing…

| Have you (or higher ups) pointed out his immaturity and behavior are likely the exact reasons he wasn’t selected to lead the team, and if he continues on this path he is ensuring he will never advance at the company? That could do one of two things… get him to shift his attitude or find a new job where he can advance. This is currently my top option I'm considering. I'd like to deliver (or have my manager deliver)…

There is another thing in here to add to the feedback about why won’t be moving up. If he is the only one he knows the stack, and he isn’t personable enough to work with for a hand off (for most of the team), he had stuck himself in that role. Some people think if only they can do a certain job it means security, but what it really means is they can never be promoted.

If he wants to move up he needs to show that is can successfully work with people and have everything off, so he isn’t a single point of failure.

Being a lead is also more than hard skills, it’s soft skills and being able to work with people, which sounds like a weakness.

If he is serious about wanting to move up, there are lots of things he needs to address here, not just his attitude towards you.

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