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Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

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Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#51

Post by paulcole »

golly_ned wrote: post #43
paulcole wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never heard this sentence said by anyone who wasn't deeply invested in status and perception games. 100% agree. It’s almost always an engineer who’s used to being respected because they’re an engineer and have 0 soft skills.

In feedback and promo docs my leadership and soft skills were called out as exemplary and distinctively strong. If anything it's the opposite. I don't think my technical skills are as strong as some peers at my level. A big part of the difficulty is that the other engineer is more experience in certain technologies than I am. I'm self-aware enough to recognize those cases, and don't try to override him.

Seems like your company has an issue with avoiding tough conversations? How much do you trust the feedback you got?

If your soft skills are so good why are you getting bodied by this guy?

If your are such a great leader why are your reports siding with the jerk?

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#52

Post by yobbo »

golly_ned wrote: post #30
yobbo wrote: post #16

The devil's advocate would lift a few points. The OP equates disagreement with conflict and sees the main cost as being loss of status and "hurting team vibe". They seem to make a point that their own main contribution is bringing stability (good vibes?) to the team. It could be the story of a weak or unaware engineer/employee that has been promoted to a level they thought implied some sort of impunity. Because being…

I think from what I've written, it could be possible to interpret this as the case. At least part of it's true -- I'm not nearly as experienced in some of the technologies this team uses as the other engineer who's been working on the team for a lot longer. I think I'm self-aware about what I know and what I don't, and defer to him in those cases. I do think that plays into why he doesn't seem to have much respect fo…

It sounds as though there is unclarity in roles. You might have a style of avoiding or de-escalating confrontation which could make him believe your call for a post-mortem is a suggestion he can set aside.

My advice would be 1) to not phrase decisions as suggestions, 2) motivate/justify with hard facts ("an outage occurred, we are having a meeting to discuss causes/mitigations"), 3) if post-mortems are perceived as publicly assigning blame, it can't work and the culture is wrong, and 4) never motivate decisions by identity ("my background is fancier than yours so get in line") which might be happening implicitly if decisions aren't sufficiently grounded in details and facts.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#53

Post by jmkni »

A slight left-field suggestion, but have you tried asking this 'competent jerk' if he wants to go for a coffee (or pint, depending on your culture)?

He might just not be aware he's being a jerk, have you tried having a casual, non-confrontational chat with him and raising your concerns?

ie "I respect you as an engineer but you can be difficult to work with sometimes"

Maybe he just isn't aware?

Sometimes you just need to communicate more and build alliances

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#54

Post by throwaway290 »

jmkni wrote: post #53

A slight left-field suggestion, but have you tried asking this 'competent jerk' if he wants to go for a coffee (or pint, depending on your culture)? He might just not be aware he's being a jerk, have you tried having a casual, non-confrontational chat with him and raising your concerns? ie "I respect you as an engineer but you can be difficult to work with sometimes" Maybe he just isn't aware? Sometimes you just need…

This 100x. But it's not for everyone. If like me you are not good at social stuff it is hard to just get on this casual level and say "so what's been going on? those deadlines amirite?" to who you think is your enemy but it can lead to very nice results and +100 social XP

Maybe it turns out he is nice and all you need is to treat him so like he feels he's respected by you. Give him important jobs etc. It's easier after you go for drink/coffee and become a bit more chill with each other. And if he fails on something sensitive that you gave him then you don't have to struggle for proof to management that he sucks

But maybe BE prepared to confront if he starts it? Maybe it's just me but it's dreadful if you bring it up and this guy shoots you down with some snark and you freeze out of surprise and lose the meeting. I would if you are value to company and he is really being an outright asshole on this meeting be prepared to say "look if you're not gonna genuinely cooperate as your lead I'll officially file a complaint/recommend to boot you from this team/whatever" and leave. Be prepared to talk over your manager to his manager. Get your drink in takeaway cup

Document this guy's sabotages with a summary of what harm it did?

I hate politics

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#55

Post by 5Qn8mNbc2FNCiVV »

Next time tell him that if he isn't going to provide something constructive to the meeting, that he won't be allowed to join further ones.

As long as you make it clear from your tone and wording, that this is not you being aggressive in any way but you protecting the time of the team from distractions, the rest of the team shouldn't see you any different than before.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#56

Post by jmkni »

throwaway290 wrote: post #54
jmkni wrote: post #53

A slight left-field suggestion, but have you tried asking this 'competent jerk' if he wants to go for a coffee (or pint, depending on your culture)? He might just not be aware he's being a jerk, have you tried having a casual, non-confrontational chat with him and raising your concerns? ie "I respect you as an engineer but you can be difficult to work with sometimes" Maybe he just isn't aware? Sometimes you just need…

This 100x. But it's not for everyone. If like me you are not good at social stuff it is hard to just get on this casual level and say "so what's been going on? those deadlines amirite?" to who you think is your enemy but it can lead to very nice results and +100 social XP Maybe it turns out he is nice and all you need is to treat him so like he feels he's respected by you. Give him important jobs etc. It's easier aft…

If it goes that way, the other advice in this thread is valid.

But at least try the non-confrontational 'lets have a coffee' approach first, especially if OP is their superior (which by the other comments, OP is).

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#57

Post by 29athrowaway »

He is using meetings as a dominance/humiliation ritual, and disagreement as an insult delivery mechanism. He is in disagreement with the hierarchy, uses disagreement to show defiance because he wants to be the leader. He also perceives he does not have much to lose by doing this because in the worst case scenario he will just go be an individual contributor elsewhere, and in the best case scenario you would leave, your role would be vacant and he may be eligible for it again.

The first thing you will do, is to talk to individual people by name. Do not ask open questions that everyone can respond to, because he will use that opportunity to be toxic. If he does intervene in a toxic way, you will continue addressing the person you were talking to, by name, and not pursue his talking point. This is fair game because you were not talking to him.

Secondly, instead of having long meetings with the entire team about every topic, you will have a general high level meeting with the team, and dedicated meetings for navigating the actual solutions with specific team members. You will not discuss solutions at length in the front of the entire team, and if you do, see the point above. You will also try to have clear agendas and expectations for meetings.

Thirdly, if he wants to initiate a conversation, try to scope it to what he was working on. Until you mobilize him to work on something else or ask for his opinion, other initiatives are not his primary concern. You can ask "tell me how the initiative X is going", or "what are your current priorities at the moment" to frame the conversation, and steer the conversation so that it stays on topic. If he refuses to answer just say "he will revisit your priorities later" and talk to someone else.

Lastly, if he operates outside the direction given by you as a lead, or consensus of the team, document it. And if it has consequences, document them. Create a clear paper trail that shows that he is not an individual contributor that can be mobilized towards a goal and is a liability for the organization.

Until he fixes his attitude, never ask for his advice in terms of "what would you in this situation if you were me", but you may ask others this.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#58

Post by throwaway290 »

jmkni wrote: post #56
throwaway290 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 100x. But it's not for everyone. If like me you are not good at social stuff it is hard to just get on this casual level and say "so what's been going on? those deadlines amirite?" to who you think is your enemy but it can lead to very nice results and +100 social XP Maybe it turns out he is nice and all you need is to treat him so like he feels he's respected by you. Give him important jobs etc. It's easier aft…

If it goes that way, the other advice in this thread is valid. But at least try the non-confrontational 'lets have a coffee' approach first, especially if OP is their superior (which by the other comments, OP is).

Totally I edited it to say that first.

Also, it feels like that guy is defensive and feeling butthurt. So op can try pretend he's awesome and give him all the difficult tasks to prove. If he fails you know what to do. If he is good then less work for you.

As the lead you don't need to be always the rockstar, the coolest managers are the ones create chance for teammates to be rockstars.

(I had bad leads where it just felt like what is the point for me existing here as a code monkey if this guy sorted it all. Tho I would never sabotage it. I just quit;))

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#59

Post by 29athrowaway »

jmkni wrote: post #53

A slight left-field suggestion, but have you tried asking this 'competent jerk' if he wants to go for a coffee (or pint, depending on your culture)? He might just not be aware he's being a jerk, have you tried having a casual, non-confrontational chat with him and raising your concerns? ie "I respect you as an engineer but you can be difficult to work with sometimes" Maybe he just isn't aware? Sometimes you just need…

The guy clearly is an underperformer that knows he cannot win through merit and instead wants to win by playing dirty.

Do not reward aggression towards you with attention and empathy.

You have to stay away from such people. The guy is likely someone with behavioral issues, bad personality traits and the undermining/sabotage could be a sign of a low skill workplace psychopath trying to manipulate and create a psychopathic fiction. You are not a therapist and it is not your job to fix that person.

When fire has nothing else to burn it consumes itself. Just don't add more fuel to the fire. Don't let that person be in your head, drain your energy. Do not ruminate about interactions with this person. Practice mental hygiene and focus on what's important: collaboration, your actual job, your goals, your friends and family, or something you can contribute in any way...

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#60

Post by actsasbuffoon »

tacostakohashi wrote: post #41
imetatroll wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now how do I deal with an engineer who seems to be brilliant - though this is sometimes hard to gauge since code quality can be subjective - who always leaps in to answer things quicker and is loved by upper management because he, I guess, constantly codes even outside of work hours, but who is extremely grating to get along with. Lord I need a different job.

That sounds very familiar to me... I know of a guy like that, who will rapidly jump on and propose and implement half-baked "tactical" solutions to any production incident. As you say, he is valued by management, because he is very responsive, at all hours, and always has some kind of snake oil "fix" to offer for any problem, and generally maintains a bit of a "mad scientist" vibe. The issue is that, most of his "fix…

I’d go so far as to say that you and this other engineer both fill vital roles on your team. It’s not that you’re right or he’s right; you’re both right.

I’ve been on teams where I needed to be the methodical engineer who carefully built critical infrastructure and agonized over every decision. I’m currently at a small startup that hasn’t yet reached breakeven, so I’m scrambling like crazy to build things our customers and investors will pay for. That’s what this team needs.

Thank goodness for both of you. Your team would be worse for it if they lacked either.

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