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Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

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Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#41
post #7

VP of Eng here. If we take your statements at face value, your manager isn’t doing his job. Toxic employees are death to companies and it’s management’s job to get rid of them. (After attempting to address the issue. But my experience is that toxics are gonna toxic. Don’t coddle them.) If you’re willing to lightly scorch some bridges, talk to your skip-level manager. If that doesn’t work, or you don’t want to, your b…

Now how do I deal with an engineer who seems to be brilliant - though this is sometimes hard to gauge since code quality can be subjective - who always leaps in to answer things quicker and is loved by upper management because he, I guess, constantly codes even outside of work hours, but who is extremely grating to get along with. Lord I need a different job.

That sounds very familiar to me... I know of a guy like that, who will rapidly jump on and propose and implement half-baked "tactical" solutions to any production incident. As you say, he is valued by management, because he is very responsive, at all hours, and always has some kind of snake oil "fix" to offer for any problem, and generally maintains a bit of a "mad scientist" vibe.

The issue is that, most of his "fixes" are just rearranging deck chairs, increasing timeouts, decreasing timeouts, adding memory, upgrading random libraries, etc., and he's constantly operating in "emergency mode", trampling on other people's work and priorities to get his "urgent" stuff out the door. He also just sort of throws things at the wall - "what if we change / disable X to fix this, would that break any client use cases?"... well, I dunno buddy, you are the one proposing the change, you have access to the logs, you are the genius, why is it _my_ job to evaluate your stream of half-baked ideas to separate the wheat from the chaff?

Ultimately, we co-exist, and I'd even say there are things to learn from him, i.e. being responsive is important and hugely valued. Over time, I've learnt not to get sucked into his urgent, half-baked proposals to save the world, I just say look, if you think that's a good idea, go for it, do it, but... you don't get to force it down everyone's throat and pretend there is consensus, I have my own, different priorities that I am not going to drop for you.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#42

I obviously know absolutely nothing about what is really going on. >I'm tired of the status and perception games and his overall impact on the team vibe and culture. I have never heard this sentence said by anyone who wasn't deeply invested in status and perception games. >He says the difficult engineer is improving and sees him trying. His feedback to me is not to let it bother me so much. He asks me what he should…

If you already don't believe me, and want to think the worst, I won't be able to change your mind.

In another comment I've explained why I think this "OP is the real problem" narrative probably isn't the case, just based on other data points I've had.

> You have a engineer in your team who thinks you are a looser and incompetent. This is why he second guesses you at every point, because he does not believe that you can make adequate decisions

I do think this is broadly correct, though.

> they have very little respect for you as a leader, they love working with you because it allows them to do what they want

This is incorrect. They actively seek guidance from me regularly. As I mention in another post, three engineers joined the team specifically to work with me. I don't have doubts about this.

> The opinion of your boss towards the "problem engineer" seems quite positive

This is wrong too. He's called him an asshole.

> Nobody respect your leadership. Your staff doesn't and your manager doesn't.

This is also wrong. I was promoted recently. My reviews are strong in a tough, calibrated org. My team is widely trusted, a complete 180 from the state before I joined when it was falling apart.

Again, if you're already dead-set on reading the worst, you'll be able to do so. But I came here for actionable advice. You gave judgment, but not advice. What's the point?

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#43

I obviously know absolutely nothing about what is really going on. >I'm tired of the status and perception games and his overall impact on the team vibe and culture. I have never heard this sentence said by anyone who wasn't deeply invested in status and perception games. >He says the difficult engineer is improving and sees him trying. His feedback to me is not to let it bother me so much. He asks me what he should…

> I have never heard this sentence said by anyone who wasn't deeply invested in status and perception games. 100% agree. It’s almost always an engineer who’s used to being respected because they’re an engineer and have 0 soft skills.

In feedback and promo docs my leadership and soft skills were called out as exemplary and distinctively strong.

If anything it's the opposite. I don't think my technical skills are as strong as some peers at my level. A big part of the difficulty is that the other engineer is more experience in certain technologies than I am. I'm self-aware enough to recognize those cases, and don't try to override him.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#44
post #2

A few things here. The first is dead stupid but it tends to work with these sort of people. You need to be very question focused. The "correct" answer to every question you ask from here on out has to be NO. Is the sky purple today... NO. Is really dumb thing a good idea... NO. > I get pushback on calling for a post-mortem You're the lead, so just assume that you have cart blanche to just book the meeting. Set it up.…

> You're the lead, so just assume that you have cart blanche to just book the meeting

You're right. I should just push this. I'm attempting to be collaborative but I'm ending up just being conflict-averse to the detriment of everyone. I'll do this this upcoming week.

> This is probably good feedback.

I'd like for it not to bother me so much. It just accumulates and has festered. I should've been more forceful and insistent sooner. It's been on the verge of being worthwhile to force the issue for a long time; it's an ambiguous case since it's mostly passive-aggressiveness, not plain meanness.

> Call him out on it. In public. Out loud.

I really can't see this turning out well for me. It's easy for me to smirk and laugh, and for me to end up looking like the asshole. I'd be playing his game and losing.

> And if he follows up "we can have a chat about this after the meeting" or "lets take this offline"

This is more my style.

Thanks a ton for this -- very helpful.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#45

If you've already managed to assert your boundaries and they've failed to respect them, then your boss is failing to listen, do their job, and maybe simply there to collect a paycheck and follow the path of least resistance rather than have a backbone. Try to have them see the light or you'll need to find somewhere else to be for your own sanity. Maybe bring your boss a copy of the No *sshole Rule by Prof. Sutton. Ne…

Yes, I am disappointed with my manager, especially given the number of times and the insistence with which I've raised this. It's clear to me both that he's afraid how this will reflect on him to his manager, and he's afraid of how the other engineer will react. He wants to keep the peace, which means me just sucking this up.

I don't want to leave this job unless I've exhausted all other possibilities. With this exception, it's great.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#46

If you've already managed to assert your boundaries and they've failed to respect them, then your boss is failing to listen, do their job, and maybe simply there to collect a paycheck and follow the path of least resistance rather than have a backbone. Try to have them see the light or you'll need to find somewhere else to be for your own sanity. Maybe bring your boss a copy of the No *sshole Rule by Prof. Sutton. Ne…

Yes, I am disappointed with my manager, especially given the number of times and the insistence with which I've raised this. It's clear to me both that he's afraid how this will reflect on him to his manager, and he's afraid of how the other engineer will react. He wants to keep the peace, which means me just sucking this up. I don't want to leave this job unless I've exhausted all other possibilities. With this exce…

But the thing for your manager is, if you leave because he didn't handle this, that will also reflect badly on him. And it sounds like leaving because of this is a real option for you. You wouldn't just be saying it to blackmail your manager - you're really thinking that you may have to leave because of this.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#47

I obviously know absolutely nothing about what is really going on. >I'm tired of the status and perception games and his overall impact on the team vibe and culture. I have never heard this sentence said by anyone who wasn't deeply invested in status and perception games. >He says the difficult engineer is improving and sees him trying. His feedback to me is not to let it bother me so much. He asks me what he should…

If you already don't believe me, and want to think the worst, I won't be able to change your mind. In another comment I've explained why I think this "OP is the real problem" narrative probably isn't the case, just based on other data points I've had. > You have a engineer in your team who thinks you are a looser and incompetent. This is why he second guesses you at every point, because he does not believe that you c…

I am sure that you will be able to change my mind.

If you read the discussion below there is one aspect I didn't bring up in this post. What does the rest of the team do when you get challenged? Do they stand up for you and defend your decision and your right to make the decision?

You brought up the post mortem. That was your decision to make, not only did you get challenged, but you also had to bring in your manager. What did the rest of the Team do? I have a hard time imagining a scenario, where you make a decision, where everyone but one guy goes against you and you still need a manager involved.

>This is incorrect. They actively seek guidance from me regularly. As I mention in another post, three engineers joined the team specifically to work with me. I don't have doubts about this.

I don't doubt any of that. And they may very well respect you, but that does not automatically translate into them respecting you as a leader.

>What's the point?

I gave you an outsiders perspective. Even if I am wrong about everything, the one thing I am absolutely certain about is that this one engineer sees you as a failure in leadership. And if he sees you as a failure in leadership (and has at least some positive opinions about his teammates, if he doesn't you are in far deeper trouble with him) then he must believe that the rest of your team does not believe in your leadership either. If I am wrong and the rest of the team stands firmly behind you, then you only need to show him that.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#48
post #2

A few things here. The first is dead stupid but it tends to work with these sort of people. You need to be very question focused. The "correct" answer to every question you ask from here on out has to be NO. Is the sky purple today... NO. Is really dumb thing a good idea... NO. > I get pushback on calling for a post-mortem You're the lead, so just assume that you have cart blanche to just book the meeting. Set it up.…

> You're the lead, so just assume that you have cart blanche to just book the meeting You're right. I should just push this. I'm attempting to be collaborative but I'm ending up just being conflict-averse to the detriment of everyone. I'll do this this upcoming week. > This is probably good feedback. I'd like for it not to bother me so much. It just accumulates and has festered. I should've been more forceful and ins…

> I really can't see this turning out well for me. It's easy for me to smirk and laugh, and for me to end up looking like the asshole. I'd be playing his game and losing.

Your style doesn't jive with this sort of aggressive posturing. Thats fair.

I would advise that you find a strategy and voice that does work for you. You need to have the things you're going to say "loaded up". Spend the first week taking time after the meeting taking an hour to write down all the things you should have said to "disarm" this person. It's less about the delivery and more that you have a message to send ready.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#49
post #7

VP of Eng here. If we take your statements at face value, your manager isn’t doing his job. Toxic employees are death to companies and it’s management’s job to get rid of them. (After attempting to address the issue. But my experience is that toxics are gonna toxic. Don’t coddle them.) If you’re willing to lightly scorch some bridges, talk to your skip-level manager. If that doesn’t work, or you don’t want to, your b…

Thank you for your advice. > your manager isn’t doing his job Yeah, I do believe this and agree. My manager's new, and hasn't gotten much guidance or mentorship. I feel like he depends on me for a lot, and since I don't have a clear answer for him in this situation since I'm actually involved in it, I think he doesn't know what to do. He's said in the past with respect to this engineer's conflict with a struggling en…

Based on what you’ve written, you owe it to your skip to have this conversation with him. This issue isn’t just affecting you, it’s affecting the whole team, and I guarantee it’s dragging down the performance of the team as a whole. (Team performance always jumps up after a toxic employee is removed, in my experience, no matter how brilliant or essential they seemed to be.)

Your manager’s fear of looking bad to his boss reflects his inexperience. (Or a dysfunctional organization, but let’s hope that’s not true.) It’s your skip’s job to provide mentoring to a new manager, and to support him in creating a high-performing team, which includes guiding him through using the company’s performance management process to take care of underperforming employees like your toxic coworker.

Since you have a good relationship with your skip, I think a frank conversation about the effect this person is having on the team will go well. You can also share that you’re worried about it blowing back on you, and your manager’s fear of looking bad. If your skip is smart, he’ll use that opportunity to take a more active hand in mentoring your manager without bringing your name into it.

Re: Ask HN: Not treated respectfully by colleague – advice?

#50

Do you have someone functioning as senior engineer? That person should help establish the direction. Sometimes people think they are smarter than the head engineer and you get a lot of non congruent engineering that is hard to unwind from. I’d review the landscape and see what support you and your team is getting and what support this guy is getting. Who does his reviews? Do you have input? Could you influence his re…

I'm the "senior" engineer in this situation (actually, senior staff -- the other engineer is 'senior', though titles in this company are inflated by ~1 relative to standards at FAANG). I'm the designated engineering leader, and the rest of the team very much likes working with me and respects me a lot -- three of our engineers joined the team citing wanting to to work with me specifically, including one engineer from…

I think your conversation with him could be professional, but you just need to point out You’re the leader and they gotta follow your direction and he doesn’t wanna be on board with that then he needs to find some other role which means leave your group and then work with management above you to make that happen but I’m assuming you can do the reviews for him and then penalize in that manner if you don’t have that ability to give them a poor review then something else is structurally wrong and where you are in that organization.
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