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Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

data-star.dev

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Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#161

Post by skeeter2020 »

hasanhaja wrote: post #77
DrewADesign wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so their homepage design unintentionally omits that pertinent information. I’ve wasted a couple of hours installing a FOSS package for a personal project only to find out one of the most heavily presented features was a paid add-in. Even if it’s bad communication design add not intentional, it feels like a salesey bait-and-switch tactic in that situation, and they probably want to know that.

Which feature are you referring to?

not the OP, but a lot of the referenced functionality looks like I might use it. The problem is I'm not going to bother trying this and investing any effort with even the looming possibility I'll need to pay to keep going. I don't think too many people approach this space with a purchase evaluation mindset like say, "I'm going to test out this grid to see if we should buy it". In that case pay-for advanced functionality is part of the approach from the start.

Also, I can't see this approach working. Getting enterprise adoption of a front end framework is almost impossible outside of React, let alone paying for a niche one, and the "contact us" approach is a non-starter.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#162

Post by skeeter2020 »

nchmy wrote: post #115
beardicus wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i went looking for pricing info and it's the last item in the last menu on the website... it's not exactly up front. i was looking for a "pricing" top-level menu item first, which is pretty standard nowadays.

As ive said in many other comments - YOU DO NOT NEED PRO. The devs are very adamant about this - even aggressively so. 99% of apps will work just fine with the free library. Pro is for some bells and whistles, or just to support people who have invested many thousands of hours into making a genuinely innovative framework, and given it away

OK, then this approach will needlessly discourage adoption AND consume way more resources than it brings in. Under this structure the team needs to deliver the highest level of quality to the smallest paying audience without community support. Further, enterprise is very hesitant to pay for this as a product but are way more receptive to paying for support. Everyone would be much better served without a tiered free/pay product and paid support options.

>> or just to support people who have invested many thousands of hours into making a genuinely innovative framework, and given it away

I've never seen a corporation do this even with projects that don't try and encourage like here.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#163

Post by skeeter2020 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #102
mbvisti wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're stretching the definition of deception here my guy-what do you want them to do? plaster a big sign on the landing page stating that this framework ALSO contains pro features that you have to pay for?

> what do you want them to do? > plaster a big sign on the landing page stating that this framework ALSO contains pro features that you have to pay for? Yes. I for one don't enjoy being on the receiving end of these marketing dark patterns and manipulation tactics.

I've commented above that this seems like a bad approach, but it sure feels like a lack of awareness vs. an intentional dark pattern. The internet makes it so easy to assume the worst but I think this is a case where we should start with the most charitable interpretation.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#164

Post by chuckadams »

Datastar's ideas look wonderful, and I've thought of adopting it myself, but hobbling the open source version to not compete with pro this early on sounds like a fast ticket to a hard fork. It's not like they command a vast ecosystem that would be reluctant to switch.

[edit: Seems like the model with an open core and some closed plugins could work out fine. If not, everyone's got options. Wishing success for both the D* developers and the users.]

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#165

Post by nchmy »

chuckadams wrote: post #164

Datastar's ideas look wonderful, and I've thought of adopting it myself, but hobbling the open source version to not compete with pro this early on sounds like a fast ticket to a hard fork. It's not like they command a vast ecosystem that would be reluctant to switch. [edit: Seems like the model with an open core and some closed plugins could work out fine. If not, everyone's got options. Wishing success for both the…

> sounds like a fast ticket to a hard fork.

Indeed! Could you do us all a favour and fork the pre-pro plugins and make them compatible with the current iteration of d* pro? They're all like 50 LOC, after all, so should be simple.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#166

Post by troupo »

sudodevnull wrote: post #148
troupo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But again, the API design woes are subjective They aren't. This is not good API design > "Wrong" to me suggests a gap in the understanding of fundamentals or of how things work. Snide vaguely dismissive remarks don't make such remarks true. > If the ideas of Datastar are fine to all of us Who's us? Are these "us" in the room with us right now?

We are limited to what is possible in the data dash-* spec. If you have better syntax that's going to work everywhere in every browser please let us know!

You literally have a custom Javascript-like DSL already https://data-star.dev/guide/datastar_expressions

This wilful insanity is completely incomprehensible to me (HTMX and lit are also fully infected with it): "Oh no, we are just HTML, we can't do anything" while literally doing tons of things outside of HTML.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#167

Post by chuckadams »

nchmy wrote: post #165
chuckadams wrote: post #164

Datastar's ideas look wonderful, and I've thought of adopting it myself, but hobbling the open source version to not compete with pro this early on sounds like a fast ticket to a hard fork. It's not like they command a vast ecosystem that would be reluctant to switch. [edit: Seems like the model with an open core and some closed plugins could work out fine. If not, everyone's got options. Wishing success for both the…

> sounds like a fast ticket to a hard fork. Indeed! Could you do us all a favour and fork the pre-pro plugins and make them compatible with the current iteration of d* pro? They're all like 50 LOC, after all, so should be simple.

Were I so inclined, I'd make them compatible with non-pro. And more likely just take my fork in whatever direction I cared to, just keeping the wire format compatible (and likely negotiable). But it's a project best left for people actually using Datastar, not curious onlookers like me.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#168

Post by array_key_first »

afavour wrote: post #127
nchmy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its interesting, and telling, that that's the only part of my comment that you replied to... Anyway, browsers are built specifically to render HTML. And html/hypermedia is specifically meant to manage and transfer state. The web has lost its way. If you want to read more about this, this free book is a great start: https://hypermedia.systems/book/contents/ Or the essays at HTMX https://htmx.org/essays/ Good luck to y…

I don’t feel the rest was really worth engaging with. SSE is a really interesting technology but again, it’s frontend agnostic. You can build a great SSE solution with any other framework. I read about approaches like this and I still don’t see the reason to do them, beyond “because you can” and “JavaScript is bad”. The separation of data and display logic between server and client is a sensible separation of concern…

You do it to reduce complexity.

The problem with JS heavy frontend is you now have TWO applications. The real application, on the backend, which makes all the decisions, and the frontend application.

You have TWO states which are being mutated independently that you now have to sync.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#169

Post by Imustaskforhelp »

markusw wrote: post #121
nchmy wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the only valid and reasonable criticism I've seen here so far, kudos to you. 299 is, indeed, inaccessible for many people. But, the devs live in places where things cost more, so its also a tiny price compared to the relative value that they provide. I do think that some sort of geo-relative pricing structure would be worth looking into, but how does one even implement something like that? Is there something…

What I've done in a project once is use Purchasing Power Parity: basically, there's an index for purchasing power, and you adjust your pricing based on that. It's implemented in some major payment platforms, like Gumroad: https://gumroad.com/help/article/327-purchasing-power-parity

Oh wow, glad that somehow my idea of purchasing power is implemented by something like gumroad

I had checked literally everywhere including even thinking what if the devs publish it on steam or epic games but that would be weird and steam for example takes 30% cut

I had forgot to check out on gumroad but today I learnt something new thanks to you so thanks!

It seems that the dev of data-star have also commented on this and it would be lovely to see if they could implement this or any other ideas that I or the community is stated, it is nice to hear that they are taking feedback which is really nice!

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#170

Post by array_key_first »

afavour wrote: post #54
macmac wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your answers is no, you cannot provide any arguments.

I think OPs point argues for itself. The example provided is awful developer ergonomics.

Okay but why. Surely if you have auto complete this works just fine.
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