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Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

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Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#121

Post by markusw »

nchmy wrote: post #100
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #86

Not sure why the community is being so hostile like use phoenix or it charges or its hostile Like no its not. This is a genuinely cool project and most parts of it is open source and it can run on any language and its interesting that they are looking at a way so that they can fund the development of it in the process as well Its their project and they are the only ones entitled to really push things the way they wan…

This is the only valid and reasonable criticism I've seen here so far, kudos to you. 299 is, indeed, inaccessible for many people. But, the devs live in places where things cost more, so its also a tiny price compared to the relative value that they provide. I do think that some sort of geo-relative pricing structure would be worth looking into, but how does one even implement something like that? Is there something…

What I've done in a project once is use Purchasing Power Parity: basically, there's an index for purchasing power, and you adjust your pricing based on that. It's implemented in some major payment platforms, like Gumroad: https://gumroad.com/help/article/327-purchasing-power-parity

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#122

Post by imiric »

nchmy wrote: post #103
imiric wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, it's crucial for the developer to be fair about it. Running a sustainable business built on open source is entrepreneurship on hard mode. Some companies do a better job at this than others, and, unfortunately, open source has been abused as a marketing strategy on many occasions. No matter how you look at it, though, any business model that enables users to use open source software is a much better optio…

They're not even running a business on this - its literally registered as a 501c3 nonprofit. Its a labour of love that theyve shared with the world, and they actively tell people that the pro features are unnecessary for most projects. If you want those features or just want to support the project, the cost is quite fair, and just goes to things like traveling to do conference talks etc... They are not getting rich o…

That's admirable. They just gained another sponsor. :)

I do think that they should be paid for this work, and be able to sustain themselves from it. So I wouldn't be against it being a business, or the project having a subscription model. The idea of open source being gratis, and products in general being "free", has done enough harm to the world.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#123

Post by basro »

nchmy wrote: post #66
imiric wrote: post #58

Datastar is one of the few projects in the web ecosystem in years that feels like a paradigm shift for the better. The author (Delaney Gillilan) has put a lot of thought into how modern web development should be done from first principles, while leveraging core web technologies like SSE, and eschewing complexity as much as possible. His proposed GoNaDs stack[1] enables some truly impressive web applications. I highly…

I was just commenting to someone yesterday how it's a testament to how refined this is that he's been working hard for over 2 years to produce such a small amount of code. I can only imagine how many variations he's gone through in order to get to what we see today - a refined, simple, easy, powerful way to do SSR-driven declarative interactivity, etc And if that isn't enough, he's also on the cusp on releasing a web…

Hey, I'm curious about the web component framework and css framework you mentioned. I was unable to find info about it, could you link me?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#124

Post by sudodevnull »

bradly wrote: post #9

It isn't mentioned on the homepage, but Datastar does charge for the following features: data-animate - Animates element attributes over time. data-custom-validity - Adds custom validity to an element. data-on-raf - Runs an expression on every animation frame. data-on-resize - Runs an expression on element resize. data-persist - Persists signals in local storage. data-query-string - Syncs query string params with sig…

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Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#125

Post by nchmy »

simonw wrote: post #117
nchmy wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what is done here. They're emphatic that most will/should never need the pro features.

Looking at https://data-star.dev/reference/datastar_pro#pro-features the features that stood out for me as things I would want to to use (and that don't feel particularly "pro" to me) are the animation features, data-replace-url, data-on-resize, data-scroll-into-view, the @clipboard() mechanism and, most importantly, the debugging tool. My problem with this business model is that it has a chilling effect on open sour…

Datastar is currently in the Release Candidate phase of v1, which they seem to be certain will be the final form of Datastar. So, they're really not looking for "community contributions" to the core of datastar, other than for feedback to polish it off.

Moreover, ALL of the features are "plugins" - there's nothing stopping anyone from building and sharing their own. It is actually encouraged. In fact, in their next release they'll be releasing and documenting some sort of public API for plugins. Not sure exactly how it will differ from the current form though, since you can already make your own plugins.

They also intend to have some sort of free, open-source "marketplace" for community-built web components, based on their upcoming Rocket web component and Stellar css framework. You would just need to have the Datastar pro license to be able to use any of them.

I can see how this final part might be criticized, but it does seem quite fair to me. Sustainable open source is a big problem - in recent months ive had some important fully-open source dependencies disappear - even ones that were backed by well-funded companies. Moreover, Datastar is registered as a 501c3, and they really don't intend to "make money" from all of this. Its just to pay the bills, travel to conferences etc...

They're very reasonable people and open to all discussion in their discord. Im sure that whatever concerns you still have could be explained quickly if you went there.

In fact, i just posted there about this thread and how its overflowing with nonsensical complaints about how there's no link to or mention of Pro on the homepage - they said sure, we'll add a link.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#126

Post by sudodevnull »

Baguette5242 wrote: post #119
bradly wrote: post #9

It isn't mentioned on the homepage, but Datastar does charge for the following features: data-animate - Animates element attributes over time. data-custom-validity - Adds custom validity to an element. data-on-raf - Runs an expression on every animation frame. data-on-resize - Runs an expression on element resize. data-persist - Persists signals in local storage. data-query-string - Syncs query string params with sig…

I tried Datastar and it was great, then I saw this kind of move and it turned me down immediately. I don't believe it is the right way to play. A Pro support would have been better. Plus the fact that the licensing prevent to use the Datastar Pro in any kind of open-source project. Very strange move.

Then don't buy it, you probably need it

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#127

Post by afavour »

nchmy wrote: post #118
afavour wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The notion that "frontend" devs have that the DOM can and must be managed via JS is simply ridiculous The idea that UI state should be managed locally is ridiculous now?

Its interesting, and telling, that that's the only part of my comment that you replied to... Anyway, browsers are built specifically to render HTML. And html/hypermedia is specifically meant to manage and transfer state. The web has lost its way. If you want to read more about this, this free book is a great start: https://hypermedia.systems/book/contents/ Or the essays at HTMX https://htmx.org/essays/ Good luck to y…

I don’t feel the rest was really worth engaging with. SSE is a really interesting technology but again, it’s frontend agnostic. You can build a great SSE solution with any other framework.

I read about approaches like this and I still don’t see the reason to do them, beyond “because you can” and “JavaScript is bad”. The separation of data and display logic between server and client is a sensible separation of concerns. It’s the way any non-web solution does it and I don’t really see what would make the web so special that a different approach is worth it.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#128

Post by sudodevnull »

DrewADesign wrote: post #60
nchmy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're completely comfortable with and unapologetic about the model. And they're not hiding anything.

Ok, so their homepage design unintentionally omits that pertinent information. I’ve wasted a couple of hours installing a FOSS package for a personal project only to find out one of the most heavily presented features was a paid add-in. Even if it’s bad communication design add not intentional, it feels like a salesey bait-and-switch tactic in that situation, and they probably want to know that.

Why is pro pertinent info? You probably don't need it. It's just a set of plugins and tools anyone could write if they needed.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#129

Post by sudodevnull »

porridgeraisin wrote: post #116
mbvisti wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're stretching the definition of deception here my guy-what do you want them to do? plaster a big sign on the landing page stating that this framework ALSO contains pro features that you have to pay for?

> plaster a big sign Yes!! That's table stakes. It's the bare minimum needed to not be considered malice.

Why? What is at stake?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#130

Post by mexicocitinluez »

sudodevnull wrote: post #124
bradly wrote: post #9

It isn't mentioned on the homepage, but Datastar does charge for the following features: data-animate - Animates element attributes over time. data-custom-validity - Adds custom validity to an element. data-on-raf - Runs an expression on every animation frame. data-on-resize - Runs an expression on element resize. data-persist - Persists signals in local storage. data-query-string - Syncs query string params with sig…

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