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Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

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Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#81

Post by markusw »

philipallstar wrote: post #39

I think something I'd love is to see how to adopt some of the more decent frontend practices (e.g. having a component library) but rendering them using a backend that isn't something like NextJS. Can you import a component library and use it in a Flask app, say, or are the worlds just fundamentally too different?

For Go, something like gomponents [0] or Templ [1] would fit that. (Disclaimer: I wrote gomponents.) I even have a Datastar integration now. [2]

[0]: https://www.gomponents.com

[1]: https://templ.guide

[2]: https://www.maragu.dev/gomponents-datastar

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#82

Post by nchmy »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #70
imiric wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think this is the most sustainable approach for monetizing open source projects, as long as the developer is fair about it. That is, truly make features that only large and/or enterprise users would have a use for, and only charge for those, instead of arbitrarily deciding to put core features of the software behind a paywall. In the case of a web framework, that choice is a bit difficult. But if the software is…

I'm skeptical about this business model because it can become worse than proprietary software dependency over time. You get lured in by thinking it's open source and free, and might end up paying as much as the developer wants for essential features a few years later.

Except the pro option is not "a few years later" it's available in pre-v1 and is a one-time lifetime purchase, not a subscription.

And the framework and docs are so small and simple, that you can read the entire site in an hour or two, in which time you would have noticed the pro features and pricing many times.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#83

Post by foofoo12 »

mbvisti wrote: post #14
bradly wrote: post #9

It isn't mentioned on the homepage, but Datastar does charge for the following features: data-animate - Animates element attributes over time. data-custom-validity - Adds custom validity to an element. data-on-raf - Runs an expression on every animation frame. data-on-resize - Runs an expression on element resize. data-persist - Persists signals in local storage. data-query-string - Syncs query string params with sig…

not sure i think this is a good way to fund their work BUT exploring models to make open-source sustainable for the developers does seem like a good thing, no?

> exploring models

This model of using deception to hide costs isn't exactly "exploring". It's tried and tested.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#84

Post by jakewins »

miroljub wrote: post #57
andersmurphy wrote: post #17

For those of you who don't think Datastar is good enough for realtime/collaborative/multiplayer and/or think you need any of the PRO features. These three demos each run on a 5$ VPS and don't use any of the PRO features. They have all survived the front page of HN. Datastar is a fantastic piece of engineering. - https://checkboxes.andersmurphy.com/ - https://cells.andersmurphy.com/ - https://example.andersmurphy.com/…

[flagged]

The whole point of this framework is that a ton of the logic remains on the backend, with live connections to the frontend. At least for me the performance and hosting cost implications of that was the first question that came to my mind when I looked at this, I don’t understand how answering this question isn’t relevant here.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#85

Post by TeddyDD »

Mizza wrote: post #28

Reinventing the wheel and then charging for simple features? If this paradigm excites you, just use Phoenix, dawg. It's so far ahead, everything else feels primitive.

In what specific areas Phoenix Live View is so far ahead? Do you mind elaborating?

The unfortunate disadvantage of Live View is that you need to write Elixir. A lovely language, but it would be hard to sell in company that use only . The hypermedia libraries like d* and htmx can be used with any backend.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#86

Post by Imustaskforhelp »

Not sure why the community is being so hostile like use phoenix or it charges or its hostile

Like no its not.

This is a genuinely cool project and most parts of it is open source and it can run on any language and its interesting that they are looking at a way so that they can fund the development of it in the process as well

Its their project and they are the only ones entitled to really push things the way they want.

It looks cool and I might hack with it in golang. Thanks a lot for your work.

One minor feedback I want to share is that although I don't mind having a charge for things, 299$ especially in my country is a seriously lot of money and I think that some of these might be needed by me if I go full in on it but I genuinely can't afford even the single tier one.

Could the non profit atleast have some dynamic pricing for all countries sort of like steam? And/or donating to people.... like I mean genuinely no shade whatsoever at the datastar team but animation etc. are already available in sveltekit for free and I don't want it for free but I just genuinely can't afford it here...

Another suggestion could be to lean very heavily on the entreprise who can afford such things much rather easily or maybe even more and maybe you/team can lower the price for solo so that solo devs can try things out and not be worried for 299$-ish y'know?

Deep respects for the project, Its another tool which is mostly free so the community's reaction is very weird for that...

But if I can be genuinely honest, I am saying this as a guy who has never paid any community/anything online but I would for the first time genuinely sponsor the project for 5-10$ (I know it ain't much but that's all I am comfortable with donating as a teenager right now)

Can you please charge atleast the solo level to atleast be the price of the silksong? I don't know but I will try the project out as it looks super cool

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#87

Post by nchmy »

Unai wrote: post #80
nchmy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird comment. Why bring this up unless you're just trying to make them look bad in a dishonest way? It is clearly documented on the site in multiple places. Moreover, they actively dissuade people from even buying the pro license because they are quite emphatic that most people/sites do not need any of these features. If you do need them, then it's a small price to pay for the functionality, as well as to mak…

I opened my HN client and saw multiple posts at the top of the home page about this datastar thing, with comments like yours either very aggressively defending it or praising it as the best thing since bread. Did you forget one of those "full disclosure" thingies at the top of your comment? In any case, I didn't see anything interesting about it, even less so after reading OP's useful comment on the pricing, but even…

Full disclosure: I'm a happy and grateful user and purchaser of the datastar pro license.

And it's not a company, it's literally 3 guys who have a 501c3 non profit, and actively dissuade people from buying the pro license because YAGNI.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#88

Post by andersmurphy »

afavour wrote: post #65
nchmy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, most frontend frameworks barely on even the simplest of sites. This is not only well documented, but most of them have now moved towards some sort of SSR hybrid - at great complexity cost.

I disagree with “most”. 99% of the sites featured on HN do just fine. OP is a talented developer that wrote a backend capable of surviving a ton of traffic. Other developers on the internet have written backends that cannot sustain a ton of traffic. The choice of frontend framework is separate from both. You can write a performant web app that uses React. I’m sure you can write one that falls over immediately with Da…

Thank you for the kind words.

I think for me the key thing is Datastar lets me keep most of my state on the backend, which makes the backend much simpler to write. It also lets me do immediate mode streaming of the HTML, which again is non trivial in something like react without a lot of added complexity.

So it's an enabler in that sense. But, yes it's totally possible to write a backend that falls over with datastar like any technology.

I also agree, that Datastar does benefit from backend experience and if you don't have that experience it can to some extent feel like:

"Draw some circles. Now draw the rest of the Owl".

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#89

Post by mbvisti »

foofoo12 wrote: post #83
mbvisti wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not sure i think this is a good way to fund their work BUT exploring models to make open-source sustainable for the developers does seem like a good thing, no?

> exploring models This model of using deception to hide costs isn't exactly "exploring". It's tried and tested.

you're stretching the definition of deception here my guy-what do you want them to do? plaster a big sign on the landing page stating that this framework ALSO contains pro features that you have to pay for?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#90

Post by cindyllm »

Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #86

Not sure why the community is being so hostile like use phoenix or it charges or its hostile Like no its not. This is a genuinely cool project and most parts of it is open source and it can run on any language and its interesting that they are looking at a way so that they can fund the development of it in the process as well Its their project and they are the only ones entitled to really push things the way they wan…

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