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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

cnn.com

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#701

Post by nsoonhui »

softwaredoug wrote: post #479

I've heard it said by eliminating all other avenues of Palestinian political expression, Netanyahu created modern Hamas. He undermined the two-state solution and Palestinian Authority. When you do this, you back people into a corner. There's no path to peacefully making progress on anything you care about. It also conveniently gives Netanyahu a boogeyman for his own political ends. You might argue the PA was corrupt,…

I would argue that the 2005 Israeli unilateral withdrawal from Gaza created the vacuum that allowed Hamas to grow. Palestinians and Hamas interpreted that withdrawal as a validation of their resistance strategy [0]—including suicide bombings—and it boosted their confidence in the goal of liberating all of Palestine “from the river to the sea,” which effectively means the elimination of Israel.

So no, what really happened was precisely the opposite of “eliminating all other avenues of Palestinian political expression.”

0: https://besacenter.org/gaza-disengagement-lessons/

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#702

Post by boston_clone »

emmelaich wrote: post #687
boston_clone wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, a lot of the accusations were not baseless; you’re using a different definition. The accusations of them deliberately shooting children in the head and targeting journalists have been proven unfortunately accurate time and time again. We must be precise in our language when describing war crimes. No wiggle room.

You're asking for certitude when there can never be certitude. Just as an example, if a Hamas soldier dons a PRESS vest, is he automatically immune?

I’m not sure if the logic on that statement checks out - there are already proven cases of what I’m describing (affirming the consequent here maybe?).

In other words, so what if Hamas dons a press vest? We know the IDF have committed war crimes. They seem aware of it, too -

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-army-set-hide-sol...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#703

Post by Agingcoder »

jameshilliard wrote: post #652
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

> Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. After the October 7 attacks it was critical that Israel re-establish deterrence, not doing so would be inviting more attacks. > Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, which played directly into the dynamics of guerrilla warfare where a strong state's extreme actions ag…

Is there any way to starve people deliberately, and win a media war ? I’m not sure this has anything to do with Muslim vs Jewish population sizes.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#704

Post by ashdksnndck »

toast0 wrote: post #692
YZF wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled. What sort of adaptation are you proposing? I do agr…

> So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? What they're doing doesn't seem to be working, so maybe something else. This is just armchair military philosophizing, but after the October attack, go ahead and do some big disproportionate response stuff for 30-90 days, then a ceasefire and prisoner exchange (this happened). But if the ceasefire doesn't work out, you can't go ba…

> Alternately, big problems require big solutions. Forcibly return Gaza to Egyptian control, as it was before the Six Day War, and encourage Egypt to deal with Hamas through diplomacy and response to future attacks from within Gaza as if they were from Egypt.

This sounds kind of like the proposed peace plan, no? They’re supposedly going to put an Arab force in charge of Gaza.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#705

Post by bigyabai »

asdefghyk wrote: post #649
bigyabai wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And why is there never any posted articles with criticism of Hamas? There definitely is; discussion of the Yemen conflict has been constant on HN. The Israeli criticism of Hamas gets much less coverage because it's less globally important. The consequence of one side or the other "losing" has very little bearing on global affairs. Many of the Israeli articles criticizing Hamas lack impartial corroboration, largely…

I mean "bad things" Hamas has done to their own? people ( Gaza people). Example - Hamas has killed people who criticise it ( or I should say thats whats been reported )

I don't think you read my last comment. Hundreds of embedded reporters living in Gaza have died, the only remaining perspective is the famously biased hasbara news, subject to the Israeli Military Censor unit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Censor

We can't take Israel's word for it, since the IDF controls their media. We don't have much independent reporting since Israel suppresses it. You can pretty easily read between the lines to figure out who's hiding what.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#706

Post by zzzeek »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

Netanyahu's goal is endless war and conflict so that he'll never have to leave office and finally face criminal charges. I think Oct 7 is exactly what he wanted also.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#707

Post by SilverElfin »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

> Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response

Is it disproportionate? Why do we talk about proportions when it comes to Jewish people defending their security but don’t bring it up in other conflicts? There was no talk of proportionate response after 9/11, for example. Virtually all nations who participated in the global war on terror didn’t care.

Proportionality is also not relevant when you’re talking about terrorists who are hiding among civilians on purpose. Why should Israel have to sacrifice the security of its residents to limit collateral damage among the very people who voted for Hamas and still support Hamas, as polls show.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#708

Post by Agingcoder »

babyshake wrote: post #615
ciconia wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The division is not about the starvation of Gaza. All Zionist parties in the Israeli parliament support the military campaign in Gaza. Apart from some lip-service from left-wing leaders, to my knowledge no Jewish leader has spoken against the starvation. Israeli media (except for Haaretz) have largely denied that there is a famine, and have called it a "propaganda campaign" by the Hamas.

My understanding is the defense made by Zionist parties is more that Hamas has culpability in the starvation. I haven't seen this claim verified or debunked sufficiently to have a strong opinion about it but it at least seems within reason to me that Hamas is acting in bad faith and is weaponizing starvation of Gaza residents.

The Israeli military itself debunked it I think . The us said the same thing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#709

Post by BrenBarn »

bawolff wrote: post #685
holmesworcester wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel's main best option is to give Palestinians, at least those unambiguously born under Israel's control, the right to vote in Israeli federal elections. A government that can kick down the door of the house you were born in has a duty to give you voting rights. (And if your ethnic group is denied voting rights, you have a basic duty to your fellow man to raise hell until you get those rights, because arbitrary st…

International law forbids the occupying power to give voting rights to occupied regions. Its also a bit unclear what you mean by "unambiguously under Israeli control" since Palestinians in occupied palestinian territories aren't unambigiously under Israeli control, they had little control over the inside of Gaza until recently, and have some power in the west bank that is shared with the PA. Neither is "unambiguous c…

International law forbids a lot of things Israel already does. If it respected international law it would withdraw to its internationally recognized borders.
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