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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#681
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> So yes, maybe Israel started the war, not least by colonizing a territory and forcibly displacing its inhabitants (also called “stealing their land). As well as ensuring funding of Hamas[1][2], and willfully ignoring warnings the attack was imminent[3][4]. [1]: https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-... [2]: https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/seized-documents-qatar-fun... [3]: https://www.jpost.…

Name few exact cities, villages that were stolen? With trustworthy prooflinks about all the details of those specific places being stolen.

Before that your comment with abstract yellow news posts is just a dumb propaganda.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#682
post #4

There is simply no excuse for blocking the entry of food into a region wholesale. For that alone they should, at the very least, be an outcast in the international community. But here we are.

The claim I've heard them make is that the food aid is making it in, but being stolen by Hamas so that it can be resold at markup. How do you convince people that believe this that it isn't true (or is irrelevant)?

How could it be irrelevant?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#683
post #679
post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled. What sort of adaptation are you proposing? I do agr…

"What we have seen throughout this is not criticism. It is hate. It is often directed at Jews, not just at the Israeli government. Not 100% but a large percentage." This is exactly the blackpill. I live in a Muslim-majority country. Jews and Muslims have been allies since the start of Islamic history. Yes, there was some hate for Jews 20 years ago, but it has been gradually displaced into Zionist hate. The recent ana…

well put.

but that takes a level of humanism, and effort, abusive leaders don’t have and unfortunately people are too brainwashed to see (and lack the knowledge to understand?).

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. After the October 7 attacks it was critical that Israel re-establish deterrence, not doing so would be inviting more attacks. > Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, which played directly into the dynamics of guerrilla warfare where a strong state's extreme actions ag…

A country loses its right to "re-establish deterrence" when the population it's "deterring" is born inside its own de-facto borders, and when the only reason it needs to deter so many of them is that they would (rightly) like one of a) sovereignty or b) voting rights inside the federal system that controls their borders and can kick down the doors of the houses they were born in. If Israel would like to give Gaza ful…

> A country loses its right to "re-establish deterrence" when the population it's "deterring" is born inside its own de-facto borders, and when the only reason it needs to deter so many of them is that they would (rightly) like one of a) sovereignty or b) voting rights inside the federal system that controls their borders and can kick down the doors of the houses they were born in.

It's not just Palestinians they needed to deter, by the way most Israelis were also born within the borders as well. Israel has in the past made efforts to give more sovereignty to Palestinians but those efforts have largely backfired. I think initial efforts really need to focus on de-radicalization of Palestinians first before there's any reasonable chance another attempt at giving them more sovereignty will be more successful.

> If Israel would like to give Gaza full sovereignty, or Palestinians born inside the occupied territories the right to vote in the federal systems that determine their law enforcement environment, we can talk about deterrence and law enforcement respectively.

They already tried that[0], it didn't work out and arguably made the situation worse as they voted for Hamas[1] which quite openly advocates for the destruction of Israel.

> Israel has unilateral control of who it recognizes as its citizens, and what sovereign states it recognizes. No complaint about current or past bad behavior by the Palestinians excuses its failure to grant sovereignty or voting rights to people under its territorial control.

Are you seriously suggesting Israel can just give citizenship/voting rights to all Palestinians and make a group that largely wants their destruction a voting majority? There's a reason this will basically never happen, and that reason is that it would effectively be suicidal for Israelis. This sort of one-state solution is completely unrealistic. Some variation of a two-state solution is probably the most realistic, but I think we're a long way off from that being viable due to a lack of Palestinian desire for peaceful coexistence.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#685

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

Israel's main best option is to give Palestinians, at least those unambiguously born under Israel's control, the right to vote in Israeli federal elections. A government that can kick down the door of the house you were born in has a duty to give you voting rights. (And if your ethnic group is denied voting rights, you have a basic duty to your fellow man to raise hell until you get those rights, because arbitrary st…

International law forbids the occupying power to give voting rights to occupied regions.

Its also a bit unclear what you mean by "unambiguously under Israeli control" since Palestinians in occupied palestinian territories aren't unambigiously under Israeli control, they had little control over the inside of Gaza until recently, and have some power in the west bank that is shared with the PA. Neither is "unambiguous control". The only group unambigiously under their control are the Palestinians inside Israel proper who as far as i understand do have full voting rights.

If you think military presence should equal voting rights, than i think that would imply that Iraq should be able to vote in US presedential elections.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#686

I've heard it said by eliminating all other avenues of Palestinian political expression, Netanyahu created modern Hamas. He undermined the two-state solution and Palestinian Authority. When you do this, you back people into a corner. There's no path to peacefully making progress on anything you care about. It also conveniently gives Netanyahu a boogeyman for his own political ends. You might argue the PA was corrupt,…

Israel gave Hamas seed funding back in the 1980s. They thought it would weaken the PLO. This was when the US funding the Taliban. Having pet Jihandis' was cool back then.

More recently, USA gave ('returned') $1.7 billion to Iran. Of course a large chunk of that has gone to Hamas and Hezbollah and numerous other interests that destabilise Israel and Western powers.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-united-states-iran-an...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wild to me how many people here use the "it's war, bad things happen" to justify the situation The point is to distinguish this war from how others have been fought. A lot of accusations against the IDF's conduct have been baseless. Not wrong in that they're factually incorrect. Just wrong in that it's how everyone else fights wars when they go to war. This is different. America didn't trigger a famine in Iraq or A…

No, a lot of the accusations were not baseless; you’re using a different definition. The accusations of them deliberately shooting children in the head and targeting journalists have been proven unfortunately accurate time and time again. We must be precise in our language when describing war crimes. No wiggle room.

You're asking for certitude when there can never be certitude.

Just as an example, if a Hamas soldier dons a PRESS vest, is he automatically immune?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#688

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

> Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this Israel probably came out ahead if all they lost is prestige. They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power. Their weapons and military have been validated, which makes than a desirable trading partner in an increasingly-militarising world. And they're turning into a gas exporter. Worst case, a gen…

> They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power

How did they "neuter" Iran? Iran responded quickly and managed to heavily damage TelAviv and is now rushing to accelerate rebuilding their nuclear capabilities.

If anything, the previous operation was a disaster, it allowed to regime to entrench itself even further in IRAN and regime change that they were hoping for didn't happen.

I'm sure both Iran and Israel are gearing up for another round of heavy conflict later this year or early next year.

IRAN is still very much a threat to Israel.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#689

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

Israel's main best option is to give Palestinians, at least those unambiguously born under Israel's control, the right to vote in Israeli federal elections. A government that can kick down the door of the house you were born in has a duty to give you voting rights. (And if your ethnic group is denied voting rights, you have a basic duty to your fellow man to raise hell until you get those rights, because arbitrary st…

Without some strong general protection isn't that just 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner? Seems at least some basic guaranteed rights and freedoms is needed.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure. They did that when they killed Sinwar. After that, they could have just continued to Mossad individual leaders in Hamas. Killing one enemy leader is insufficient to re-establish deterrence, with how severe the October 7 attacks were I don't think Israel can possibly accept any outcome that doesn't effectively remove Hamas from power in Gaza. > Not relevant to America. It still has some effect in America, but…

> Killing one enemy leader is insufficient to re-establish deterrence They'd killed more than one at that point. Like, Hezbollah got the message pretty clearly.

> They'd killed more than one at that point.

However Hamas has yet to capitulate/surrender, Israel basically has no choice but to finish Hamas off if they won't surrender, not doing so would significantly weaken their deterrence capabilities and allow Hamas to rebuild. There are potential consequences to ceasefire agreements where an enemies leadership retains power[0] historically.

> Like, Hezbollah got the message pretty clearly.

They eventually got the message after Israel essentially eliminated the entirety of their leadership chart multiple levels deep and crushed Hezbollah's will to fight, the ceasefire Hezbollah eventually agreed to was effectively a surrender agreement.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

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