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TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

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Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#211

Post by jorangreef »

big_hacker wrote: post #88
jorangreef wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joran from TigerBeetle here! Yes, this is by design. SQL is a great general purpose query language for read-heavy variable-length string workloads, but TigerBeetle optimizes for write-heavy transaction processing workloads (essentially debit/credit with fixed-size integers) and specifically with power law contention, which kills SQL row locks. I spoke about this specific design decision in depth at Systems Distribute…

What's it like compared to Redis or even KeyDB?

Compared to Redis, TigerBeetle has strong durability, and an LSM storage engine to page incremental updates to disk, so it can support 10+ TiB data sets without running into snapshot stalls or OOM.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#212

Post by eitland »

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #199
eitland wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. But for anyone tempted by Oracle, do remember that the upfront, agreed licence costs are only a fraction of the true price: You’ll need someone who actually knows Oracle - either already in place or willing to invest a serious amount of time learning it. Without that, you’re almost certainly better off choosing a simpler database that people are comfortable with. There’s always a non-zero risk of an Oracle rep…

Wait, are you saying that oracle lets you use features you don’t have a license for, but then threatens to sue you for using them? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised given oracle’s business model, but I am surprised they let you use the feature in the first place.

That was not what I was thinking of when I wrote it, but that absolutely also was a thing:

I especially remember one particular feature that was really useful and really easy to enable in Enterprise Manager, but that would cost you at least $10000 at next license review (probably more if you had licensed it for more cores etc).

What I wrote about above wasn't us changing something or using a new feature but some sales guy at their side re-interpreting what our existing agreement meant. (I was not in the discussions, I just happened to work with the guys who dealt with it and it is a long time ago so I cannot be more specific.)

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#213

Post by jorangreef »

menaerus wrote: post #209
jorangreef wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, sharding would kill performance under contention, which characterizes many OLTP workloads (e.g. top ten bestseller list on Black Friday, super stocks like NVIDIA, the big 4 banks on a switch, PhonePe/Google Pay on UPI etc)

Sharding is if anything a way to reduce the contention.

Transactions typically need to hit the same set of house accounts. For example, fee accounts, omnibus accounts etc.

Or a central bank switch may only have 4 major banks.

Or a system like UPI may have 85% of transactions flowing through 2 hubs. Say 50% through PhonePe. And say 35% through Google Pay.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#214

Post by [deleted] »

dangoodmanUT wrote: post #85

I really like the work Joran and his team have done around DST, distributed systems awareness, and performance practices. I especially love the craziness around no dependencies (well, could you consider an underlying OS a dependecy?). But I've always felt the way they treat normal OLTP (they call OLGP) seems unfair. For example, comparisons using clear sub-optimal interactive SQL transactions for financial workloads,…

[deleted]

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#215

Post by itunpredictable »

metadat wrote: post #203
itunpredictable wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will add them in subsequent posts. The information is all over our site (they are on our portfolio page, and we wrote about them when we invested) but I am happy to reiterate on each post for each company

Why can't it be added to this post? The resistance to a seemingly obvious correction seems a little shady. Expecting people to dig around a site to find out your position of financial interest is not reasonable. Such behavior is disappointing, especially from a top HN account holder. It's too bad, because otherwise there are some interesting ideas, but TFA is lacking in good faith.

Added! Had signed off for the day

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#216

Post by motoboi »

jorangreef wrote: post #187
motoboi wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's wait 25 years and we'll see if TigerBeetle becomes the next google or if it's engulfed by a less perfect (but faster) rival.

Give us 27 years—the company only turned 3 last month, and we designed for 30 :) To be clear, TB's pretty young, only 3, but Jepsen-tested and already migrating some of the largest brokerages, wealth managements and exchanges in various countries. I'm excited to see what can be done in 27. ”Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast”

Just to keep the tone I’d like to say I was just joking and that I wish you guys great success! Tiger beetle is amazing!

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#217

Post by foldU »

cowpig wrote: post #200
foldU wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a post on a VC blog of all places should be considered "journalism"

You're nitpicking the term "journalism" here, but even in casual conversation if a friend went on and on about how great a company was and then I later found out that they: * Got paid a referral fee if I signed up * Owned shares in the company * Even was roommates with the founders/CEO but failed to mention it I would trust that person less going forward. If you want to be perceived as trustworthy, then you shouldn't…

I don’t mean to suggest it’s not sleazy—I think it’s sleazy by default. VC writing is not to be trusted.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#218

Post by MobiusHorizons »

eitland wrote: post #212
MobiusHorizons wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, are you saying that oracle lets you use features you don’t have a license for, but then threatens to sue you for using them? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised given oracle’s business model, but I am surprised they let you use the feature in the first place.

That was not what I was thinking of when I wrote it, but that absolutely also was a thing: I especially remember one particular feature that was really useful and really easy to enable in Enterprise Manager, but that would cost you at least $10000 at next license review (probably more if you had licensed it for more cores etc). What I wrote about above wasn't us changing something or using a new feature but some sale…

Got it, that is much more in line with my expectations of oracle. I am constantly amazed they have any business left given these kinds of stunts.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#219

Post by metadat »

itunpredictable wrote: post #215
metadat wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't it be added to this post? The resistance to a seemingly obvious correction seems a little shady. Expecting people to dig around a site to find out your position of financial interest is not reasonable. Such behavior is disappointing, especially from a top HN account holder. It's too bad, because otherwise there are some interesting ideas, but TFA is lacking in good faith.

Added! Had signed off for the day

Thanks, sorry my post wasn't more charitable! My bad.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#220

Post by jorangreef »

dailyfin wrote: post #204

The post does a good job selling the “why” (hot-row contention + strict serializability) but it’d help the community to see a clearer “when.” A practical rubric would be: if X% of writes touch Y “house accounts” with RTT Z, OLTP throughput on MVCC/row-lock engines caps at ~N TPS; TB sustains ~M TPS—showing the apples-to-apples path from workload shape to DB choice. Framed that way, TB becomes a “consensus-backed inte…

Much appreciated.
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