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TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

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Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#171

Post by senderista »

andrewl-hn wrote: post #143
websiteapi wrote: post #19

All of these apply to FoundationDB as well. - Slow code writing. - DST - No dependencies - Distributed by default in prod - Clock fault tolerance with optimistic locking - Jepsen claimed that FDB has more rigorous testing than they could do. - New programming language, Flow, for testing. You probably could solve the same problems with FDB, but TigerBeetle I imagine is more optimized for its use case (I would hope...)…

> the only reason FDB isn't massively popular The only reason is Apple. They liked the product that was released in 2013 so much they bought the whole company, and all other FoundationDB users were abandoned and were forced to drop it. Who would trust a database that can be yanked out of you at any moment? Though a lot of products have license terms like this only a handful were ever discontinued so abruptly. It's un…

Well, all users except Snowflake.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#172

Post by 6510 »

seemaze wrote: post #46
Xelbair wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNS still runs strong and it was ~~designed~~ released* in the November 1983. It still holds up basically whole of internet. in most cases SQL is good enough for 90% of workloads.

What would DNS look like if it were released in 2025?

...and what should it look like?

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#173

Post by senderista »

justinclift wrote: post #148
cma256 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Node count doesn't matter. You could use an embedded database and encounter the same problem. There is some time T between when you acquire a lock and release it. Depending on the amount of contention in your system, this will have some affect on total throughput (i.e. Amdahl's law).

How familiar are you with MVCC? https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/mvcc-intro.html Asking because needing a lock for changing a row isn't the only approach that can be taken.

Almost all commercial MVCC implementations (including Postgres) use row locks. Very few use OCC even though it's arguably a more natural fit for MVCC. Pessimistic locking is simply more robust over varied workloads.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#174

Post by redwood »

sgarland wrote: post #93
dangoodmanUT wrote: post #85

I really like the work Joran and his team have done around DST, distributed systems awareness, and performance practices. I especially love the craziness around no dependencies (well, could you consider an underlying OS a dependecy?). But I've always felt the way they treat normal OLTP (they call OLGP) seems unfair. For example, comparisons using clear sub-optimal interactive SQL transactions for financial workloads,…

> Do you think Stripe has 1% contention directly on an OLTP DB? Definitely not. Stripe runs on top of MongoDB, which is horrifying in its own right, but in any case comparing them to a shop running an RDBMS is apples to oranges.

Stripe delivers incredible uptime. This type of comment is beneath this platform.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#175

Post by gaudystead »

itunpredictable wrote: post #164
blenderob wrote: post #134

As nice as TigerBeetle is, do keep in mind that this article is written by an investment company that has invested in TigerBeetle: https://www.amplifypartners.com/blog-posts/our-investment-in...

I have a few of these posts I've written coming out over the next few months that I want people to discuss. Would you prefer I add a disclaimer at the top? Easy enough to add

Personally, I'd say you should definitely add a disclaimer, otherwise a discussion that would likely gain traction is that the information might be being intentionally concealed.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#176

Post by cowpig »

itunpredictable wrote: post #164
blenderob wrote: post #134

As nice as TigerBeetle is, do keep in mind that this article is written by an investment company that has invested in TigerBeetle: https://www.amplifypartners.com/blog-posts/our-investment-in...

I have a few of these posts I've written coming out over the next few months that I want people to discuss. Would you prefer I add a disclaimer at the top? Easy enough to add

If you care about ethics of journalism then yes you should obviously disclose a financial interest in what you write.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#177

Post by jorangreef »

nextaccountic wrote: post #170
jorangreef wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joran from TigerBeetle here! TigerBeetle is our open source contribution. We want to make a technical contribution to the world. And we have priorities on the list of things we want to support, and support properly, with high quality, in time. At the same time, it's important I think that we encourage ourselves and each other here, you and I, to show respect to projects that care about craftsmanship and doing things…

> TigerBeetle is our open source contribution. Wait, is it open source?? Since when? I always thought it was proprietary

Apache 2.0 since day 0, since it came out of a non-profit central bank switch by the Gates Foundation, which is also Apache 2.0.

Our view is that this kind of infrastructure is simply too valuable, too critical, not to be open source.

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#178

Post by ffsm8 »

justinhj wrote: post #168
ffsm8 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, that as not been my experience at all. Too be fair, its been something like 10 years iirc. The database in question was MySQL 8, running on plain old enterprise ssds (RAID 10) The workload was processing transactions (financial payments) The database schema was ... Let's call it questionable, with pretty much no normalization because "it's easier when we look at it for debugging", hence extremely long rows with…

Using your numbers and speaking roughly, if you're doing 50k rps and 500 typically to the same row wasn't your contention around 1%? TigerBeetle clais to be able to handle work loads with very high contention, for example 80 or 90% of transactions filtering out a fee to a single account to make up a use case.

Ah, you might be right!

Contention is what can be parallelized, right?

So with roughly 100-200 requests/s you end up with 1-0.5 contention if I understood that right.

That moves me even further towards agarlands points, though - if I plug that into the equation, I end up with >50k qps.

The used numbers create an insanely distorted idea wrt real world performance

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#179

Post by itunpredictable »

gaudystead wrote: post #175
itunpredictable wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few of these posts I've written coming out over the next few months that I want people to discuss. Would you prefer I add a disclaimer at the top? Easy enough to add

Personally, I'd say you should definitely add a disclaimer, otherwise a discussion that would likely gain traction is that the information might be being intentionally concealed.

I will add them in subsequent posts. The information is all over our site (they are on our portfolio page, and we wrote about them when we invested) but I am happy to reiterate on each post for each company

Re: TigerBeetle is a most interesting database

#180

Post by sgarland »

redwood wrote: post #174
sgarland wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think Stripe has 1% contention directly on an OLTP DB? Definitely not. Stripe runs on top of MongoDB, which is horrifying in its own right, but in any case comparing them to a shop running an RDBMS is apples to oranges.

Stripe delivers incredible uptime. This type of comment is beneath this platform.

I didn’t say they’re bad at their job, I said I find the technology choice horrifying. That’s a personal take, not a value statement.
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