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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#231

Post by heavyset_go »

didacusc wrote: post #22
cardanome wrote: post #8

As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.

Saying that the macOS desktop is vastly inferior to Linux desktops is absolutely nuts. I've tried to get my relatives on Linux desktops so many times, just for it to go completely wrong a couple of weeks after and having to reinstall Windows. It's just not made for average (or below-average) users, so I don't see how it can be VASTLY inferior to something as easy and polished as macOS.

What are your relatives doing?

If they're like 95% of computer users, they use them to check their email, their FB/IG/etc and browse the web. A Chromebook would suit their needs, but in my experience, so would a modern Linux installation + a browser.

The biggest friction in my experience is UI differences, but that is solved by just mimicking Windows/macOS UI in KDE. Put buttons and components where they expect to find them and it seems to just work, in my experience.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#232

Post by nrp »

cptskippy wrote: post #168
seabrookmx wrote: post #122

The article is pretty light on details. Whether the Framework is worth it to you really depends on your use case. I never leave a laptop in my bag for three weeks, and if I do I have the foresight to actually shut it down rather than sleep it. So the battery drain while sleeping is less of a problem for me. My Framework 13 has the Ryzen 5 AI 340 Chip, and I get 5-6 hours of work on a charge. The Macbooks definitely b…

My Framework is a personal device, not for work. I might use it once a day or less for a couple hours or less. It was 100% charged this past Saturday night when I picked it up off the charger. I used it for an hour or two looking for doing some planning for Halloween. Nothing serious, just browsing with Firefox. I shut the lid and placed it on the coffee table. I picked it up Sunday night to find the battery had depl…

Windows has automatic Modern Standby to Hibernate support (by default after 5% battery drain in standby). If it is not entering Hibernate, there may be an application keeping the system awake.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#233

Post by skydhash »

baq wrote: post #129
dmm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a Mac, you can switch between apps with Command-Tab or windows of the same app with Command-` but there's no way to cycle between all windows or bounce between to two most recently used windows. Maybe this used to make sense when apps were single purpose but I do basically everything in a web browser or a terminal so not being able to bounce between the previously selected window(of whatever kind), as I can with A…

Betterdisplay is $20 or so and solves the ppi problem for the most part. It’s the dumbest thing apple has ever done and hats off to betterdisplay dev. Best money ever spent on a desktop tool easily.

The solution is subpar, even if it's nice to have one. What windows and linux have is hinting for text and good antialiasing on vector elements. They map these those the actual hardware pixels so you won't have wobbly lines.

These don't matter as much when you have high PPI. But they're a lifeline on low PPI displays (and there are a lot of those).

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#234

Post by ozgrakkurt »

whatarethembits wrote: post #43

Battery life is the only thing stopping me from getting out of the Apple ecosystem. As soon as a viable Linux laptop with "enough" battery life becomes available, I'll make the switch. At that point there's nothing on Apple side that couldn't be done better in Linux (with a bit of work, but that's okay). I travel a lot, and often on standby for work during that time. I need to be confident that when I pull the laptop…

You are forgetting the touchpad, it does make a difference

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#235

Post by nrp »

maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

Out of box hibernation support in popular Linux distros is also something we want badly. We’re watching this one eagerly: https://github.com/basecamp/omarchy/pull/1417

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#236

Post by aeroevan »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #192
Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world I have to use Mac, Linux, and Windows desktops in my work. They all have their pros and cons, but I can’t say I’d ever argue that the Mac desktop experience is vastly inferior to the Linux desktop experience. Edit: Getting a lot of downvotes but most of the comments are about someone’s highly customized Linux desktop compared to completely vanilla Mac desktop. I…

> I’m referring to apples to apples comparison where they’re either some standard out of the box version or when customized with available tools and mods. Comparing your highly customized Linux desktop to a completely uncustomized Mac setup with no attempt at other tools or utilities isn’t an interesting comparison because it’s not apples to apples, it’s just a statement about your current preference. Perhaps you mis…

yabai is as close as I've seen, but yeah nothing close to awesomewm or even something like sawywm

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#237

Post by heavyset_go »

zer00eyz wrote: post #210
echelon wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finder can't be replaced. Finder the least flexible file explorer of any OS. There's no location bar. You can't have a dynamically resizing grid of icons, so if you resize your windows, the icons are constantly outside of the horizontal scroll blinds. The view modalities make it difficult to sort and find files. Major system paths (eg. Applications) are locked down and hidden. The window manager can't be replaced. Wi…

> Finder the least flexible file explorer of any OS. Tell me how you getting around your system on linux? Search is and remains a first class citizen on Mac, and is for the most part on Linux. Spotlight still edges out linux choices. Windows has all the "power tools" to root through folders cause its search is such hot garbage. > You'll never have first class tiling windows in Mac. No you have ones that work. Because…

> Because the moment that you plug in mismatched or non standard monitors into a modern linux distro all bets are off.

I do this daily with different displays and have no problems whatsoever. I've probably used over 30 different displays over USB-C and HDMI on Linux and have had no problems.

They were all different sizes, DPIs, panel types, brands, etc.

Meanwhile, I can't even do fractional scaling when using macOS lol

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#238

Post by aeroevan »

presbyterian wrote: post #41
yauneyz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends how you configure it. If you like things like tiling window managers and keyboard driven computing, Linux is in a category of its own.

There are a dozen or more options for tiling systems and keyboard-driven computing on macOS. Personally, one of the reasons I use macOS over Linux is because I find it easier to create custom keyboard commands and shortcuts. It’s all doable on Linux, sure, but on macOS there are several apps that make it easy .

If you haven't used something like i3/sway/awesomewm/hyprland on the linux side you won't know what you're missing.

While there are several apps to create custom keyboard commands, only yabai+skhd come close to what's available on linux, and it's not even that close tbh.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#239

Post by imiric »

zer00eyz wrote: post #210
echelon wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finder can't be replaced. Finder the least flexible file explorer of any OS. There's no location bar. You can't have a dynamically resizing grid of icons, so if you resize your windows, the icons are constantly outside of the horizontal scroll blinds. The view modalities make it difficult to sort and find files. Major system paths (eg. Applications) are locked down and hidden. The window manager can't be replaced. Wi…

> Finder the least flexible file explorer of any OS. Tell me how you getting around your system on linux? Search is and remains a first class citizen on Mac, and is for the most part on Linux. Spotlight still edges out linux choices. Windows has all the "power tools" to root through folders cause its search is such hot garbage. > You'll never have first class tiling windows in Mac. No you have ones that work. Because…

> I run an out of the box IDE on a basic Mac with a few tweaks for a reason: because playing games with my tools isnt getting work done.

I hear this sentiment often, but I think it's missing the main reason why most people prefer Linux, whether that's for work or leisure.

What you call "playing games" to me is actually configuring our tools and environment to function optimally according to our needs and preferences. Yes, we spend an inordinate amount of time doing this, but it ultimately leads to a more comfortable and enjoyable experience, which is well worth it considering we spend most of our day using our machines.

This is not unlike a carpenter who has very specific preferences about their tools, and how they might spend a lot of time organizing and honing them. Sure they can use a pre-built workbench from IKEA, but chances are that they prefer using one they've customized or partly built themselves over the years.

Dealing with jank and the occasional frustration is unavoidable in Linux, but no operating system and machine are perfect. There are always trade-offs. We just prefer the freedom and flexibility over a corporation forcing us to use our computers the way they think we should.

We all have different priorities and preferences, and I'm not saying yours are in any way inferior, but I wanted to clarify the other perspective.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#240

Post by hackyhacky »

jeffbee wrote: post #29
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

> If you can’t hibernate (aka suspend to disk) you will never be able to get that power consumption low. This is cope. An Apple Silicon Macbook does not need to suspend to block devices to save energy (they only do this when the battery is empty). ChromeOS doesn't offer hibernate at all. The only reason that a Framework can't have good battery life in an operating state is that nobody is paying attention to the detai…

Correct. I've got a ThinkPad T480s. Hibernation is disabled, but suspend works great. Keeps charge for at least a week. Running recent Debian. I think that Lenovo, for all their faults, just does better with Linux than Framework.
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