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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#191

Post by Implicated »

fizwidget wrote: post #171
worble wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't deny that suspend is an issue on Linux I've just never seen this as a major problem? I simply turn off my laptop and turn it on when I need it - boot times are less than a minute so it really isn't a issue for me, just flick the power switch, wait for a bit then I'm good to go.

“Less than a minute” is going to feel horribly slow to people that are used to instant-resume and not having to think about shutdown vs. sleep. You might be okay with it, but I suspect most consumers today won’t be.

This, so much. I read that comment and immediately recoiled at the idea of waiting "less than a minute" to be able to do anything. I'd estimate that 1/3 of the time I even open my laptop, I'm done with what I needed in less time than that boot up sequence takes and have closed it and moved on to something else. So often I just pop it open, do/check something and close it within seconds.

I go _months_ without rebooting/proper shut downs. And this is on a MacOS install that I've migrated from one Macbook to another for 5 macbooks now O.O

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#192

Post by AceJohnny2 »

Aurornis wrote: post #12
cardanome wrote: post #8

As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world I have to use Mac, Linux, and Windows desktops in my work. They all have their pros and cons, but I can’t say I’d ever argue that the Mac desktop experience is vastly inferior to the Linux desktop experience. Edit: Getting a lot of downvotes but most of the comments are about someone’s highly customized Linux desktop compared to completely vanilla Mac desktop. I…

> I’m referring to apples to apples comparison where they’re either some standard out of the box version or when customized with available tools and mods. Comparing your highly customized Linux desktop to a completely uncustomized Mac setup with no attempt at other tools or utilities isn’t an interesting comparison because it’s not apples to apples, it’s just a statement about your current preference.

Perhaps you missed the parent's "(for power users)"?

So here's an apples-to-apples comparison: customizing Mac desktop for one's preferences compared to Linux.

I've been on Mac for 10 years because of Work. Before that I was on Linux, using the AwesomeWM tiling window manager.

I dearly miss AwesomeWM. I've tried most 3rd-party window managers for Mac, and nothing comes close to the snappiness and functionality of Linux's tiling managers like AwesomeWM. Nowadays I just use window-movers like Rectangle [1], and I feel handicapped.

The simple fact of the matter is that Mac does not allow the level of customization that Linux inherently does. MacOS' UI hooks are through the Accessibility framework, and in my user experience, it's just a slower, jankier emulation of what a more deeply integrated WM can do. As a specific example, the author of DisplayMaid [2] has complained elsewhere on HN that macOS does not provide reliable identifiers for the displays, so they had to implement their own heuristics. Side-note: for a system so inherently dockable as macbooks, it's a tragedy that I have to rely on a 3rd-party app to re-position my windows for one of my 2 regular work setups.

I'm sure Apple could implement the hooks for better WM customization, they've certainly done their few updates with Spaces and their own poor-man's tiling, but the years with no update to integration demonstrate that they consider the Accessibility hooks to be Good Enough.

[1] https://rectangleapp.com

[2] https://funk-isoft.com/display-maid.html

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#193

Post by astrange »

izacus wrote: post #58
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

The thing is - a lot if power saving is achieved by hybrid sleep (computer hibernating after a timeout). Setting that up is pure hell on Linux, with poor documentation and security people actively fighting against making this easy. On Windows/macOS it just works, on Linux you'll probably break secure boot with it.

macOS mostly doesn't hibernate. Apple Silicon is just good enough to not need it.

It will do it eventually, though if you don't have enough free disk space it'll fail.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#194

Post by echelon »

zer00eyz wrote: post #183
baq wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t need polished and superior, I need to get work done. I want the OS to get out of the way, not slow me down with animations, stage managers and pretty docks. I don’t even need customization, I just need it to stop trying to outdo itself and fall over. I’d run kde or even gnome on my work MacBook if it let me without a second thought. PS just installed ios 26 and what is this ? If this low contrast blobby windo…

> If this low contrast blobby window thing makes its way to the laptop I’ll be very, very not impressed. You have quite a bit of control over all of these features. Dark mode, contrast controls... There is a lot there you can tweak to have it look how you want and it stays that way through pretty much all upgrades. > animations, stage managers and pretty docks. You can turn all this off for the most part. Spend as mu…

Finder can't be replaced.

Finder the least flexible file explorer of any OS. There's no location bar. You can't have a dynamically resizing grid of icons, so if you resize your windows, the icons are constantly outside of the horizontal scroll blinds. The view modalities make it difficult to sort and find files. Major system paths (eg. Applications) are locked down and hidden.

The window manager can't be replaced.

Window manager placement hacks exist, but they are not first class. You'll never have first class tiling windows in Mac.

Many of the window manager quirks are forced upon you. You can't change how to cycle and alternate windows. Exposé is flakey...

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#195

Post by manmal »

victor9000 wrote: post #172

The best thing about owning a framework is that you can easily recover from silly events like spilling an entire latte on your laptop. I've done this twice so far and both times it cost me $99 to swap out the keyboard and get back to a stock look and feel.

Or you could get a Mighty Mug or similar one that doesn’t spill.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#196

Post by AceJohnny2 »

apozem wrote: post #78
pclmulqdq wrote: post #34

The Arm architecture isn't why Apple Silicon is so good at this. Apple's silicon engineers have been very good at designing a system of power states that is extremely efficient, and have tight coupling with the OS. Linux on a framework laptop gives you none of this co-design.

Exactly - Apple hardware is designed for its software, and vice versa. They get battery gains across the stack. I remember when the M1 Macs first came out, an Apple engineer revealed they'd optimized the hardware so one specific low-level operation macOS does all the time was 5x faster than on Intel [0]. [0]: https://daringfireball.net/2020/11/the_m1_macs

> Apple hardware is designed for its software, and vice versa

Sometimes I find it hard to believe that Apple Silicon implements 2 different togglable memory models, just so that Rosetta can better emulate x86

https://www.sra.uni-hannover.de/Publications/2024/wrenger_24...

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#197

Post by rv3392 »

mort96 wrote: post #145
deepsun wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Linux is not the issue -- my System76 Lemur holds 14+ hours. Haven't used X1 Carbon for a while, but it also held way longer than Framework.

How long does it keep its charge in sleep mode? Weeks or days?

I believe they mean it lasts 14+ hours in sleep.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#198

Post by us-merul »

whatarethembits wrote: post #43

Battery life is the only thing stopping me from getting out of the Apple ecosystem. As soon as a viable Linux laptop with "enough" battery life becomes available, I'll make the switch. At that point there's nothing on Apple side that couldn't be done better in Linux (with a bit of work, but that's okay). I travel a lot, and often on standby for work during that time. I need to be confident that when I pull the laptop…

I really haven’t had a problem with my Lemur Pro from System76, which I got in spring of 2022. I did have to replace the battery once when there was noticeable swelling. Prior to this, I had always used a MacBook.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#199

Post by dreamcompiler »

TFA suggests ARM64 might be the answer. It's not that simple. Asahi Linux on Apple silicon still uses substantial energy when the lid is closed, compared to MacOS on the same hardware. With Asahi you might get a couple of days of sleep before the battery dies but you definitely won't get a month.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#200

Post by cesarvarela »

trueismywork wrote: post #116
didacusc wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that the macOS desktop is vastly inferior to Linux desktops is absolutely nuts. I've tried to get my relatives on Linux desktops so many times, just for it to go completely wrong a couple of weeks after and having to reinstall Windows. It's just not made for average (or below-average) users, so I don't see how it can be VASTLY inferior to something as easy and polished as macOS.

I just got a work Mac and I have spent around 20 years now on linux before it. I was making a list compared to KDE (not pros/cons just differences) It is still a work in progress since its only a couple of days since im using it. 1. No delete button. I know you can do Fn delete but It is more problematic. And I do use delete often. 2. System keeps important system stuff in Library directory in home. Do not do remove…

4 - in macOS apps != windows (some apps don't respect this)

8 - minimize in macOS is more like "get this window out of the way without closing it", and it is related to 4)

15 - because of 4

23 - wat

Personally, once I got used to cmd+tab and cmd+` for window management, I can't go back, but it needs a different mental model than the one on Windows/Linux.

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