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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#41

Post by presbyterian »

yauneyz wrote: post #19
Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world I have to use Mac, Linux, and Windows desktops in my work. They all have their pros and cons, but I can’t say I’d ever argue that the Mac desktop experience is vastly inferior to the Linux desktop experience. Edit: Getting a lot of downvotes but most of the comments are about someone’s highly customized Linux desktop compared to completely vanilla Mac desktop. I…

Depends how you configure it. If you like things like tiling window managers and keyboard driven computing, Linux is in a category of its own.

There are a dozen or more options for tiling systems and keyboard-driven computing on macOS. Personally, one of the reasons I use macOS over Linux is because I find it easier to create custom keyboard commands and shortcuts. It’s all doable on Linux, sure, but on macOS there are several apps that make it easy.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#42

Post by stephen_g »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #23
deevus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's the repairable nature. Prior to the Framework 13 I had a bunch of Thinkpads until the enshittification by Lenovo in recent years.

How often have you needed to repair a MacBook? The enhanced repairability is basically insurance in case of a fault. Compared to a MacBook, or insurance for a MacBook, this insurance is overpriced. As for the environment, the power consumption + larger design with extra parts to make it repairable + how few people ever buy parts makes this a virtue signaling wash.

I’m not the OP but for me, with my mid-2015, I had the battery replaced once. This was used almost every work day until 2023. My M2 Pro MBP I then bought, never so far (as you would expect for its age) and it still feels brand new.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#43

Post by whatarethembits »

Battery life is the only thing stopping me from getting out of the Apple ecosystem. As soon as a viable Linux laptop with "enough" battery life becomes available, I'll make the switch. At that point there's nothing on Apple side that couldn't be done better in Linux (with a bit of work, but that's okay).

I travel a lot, and often on standby for work during that time. I need to be confident that when I pull the laptop out, there's ALWAYS enough juice to respond to a situation immediately without worrying about anything else.

If Framework offered hot swappable batteries, even if a quick restart is required, I'd be fine with that because at least I wouldn't be stranded in that case. And I'd be happy to pay as much as a MacBook, or a bit more even, purely for ideological reasons. Apple's dominance is bad for all of us.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#44

Post by maverwa »

Aurornis wrote: post #21
flkiwi wrote: post #10

This sounds like the so-called "modern standby" (S0 vs S3, if I remember correctly). I bought a thinkpad a while back with "modern standby" and the thing wouldn't last the night suspended, and would often wake me up with its fans howling and end up being very, very hot while suspended. I disabled "modern standby" in the BIOS and it was back to sleeping for weeks without losing charge. I have no idea if that's what's…

The standby issues with Framework laptops (at least the early ones, I don’t know about recent developments) was a well known issue. I recommended Framework to someone looking for a laptop a while ago and they were bit by the standby battery drain issue. I felt bad having recommended it to them because I assumed such a basic issue would have been addressed in a laptop that was so highly regarded.

Some of the issues have been addressed. For example, iirc, there was a bug where pulling out the power plug while the lid was closed would trigger the device to wake up.

Some other issues remain. Largest I am aware of is independent from the hardware, but an issue with suspend-to-disk & kernel lockdown, which prevents deep sleep.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#45

Post by mbreese »

atwrk wrote: post #9

> I haven’t measured it but I read that I should expect it to lose 3-4% in suspend every hour. Is that a joke? That has to be a bug. I have a thinkpad with a Ryzen 7 6850U, running debian, and lose at most 3% per day .

As with all things, it’s all dependent upon the details. OS, Bios, chip, they all can have an impact on battery consumption while sleeping. The linked (from the post) Reddit thread has many suggestions on how to fix this, but for the author, I don’t think it was ever resolved. The author of that Reddit post was also shocked.

The reason why it works well for Apple is that they control everything. There are limited numbers of parts they have to support, so they can make sure it all works.

In the PC world, there are many… many variables, even from the same OEM. It’s a legitimately hard problem and manufacturers aren’t particularly motivated to get it to work better (particularly with Linux). In fact, at this moment, there’s another post on the front page that talks about this exact issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45288440 . It is about debugging an ACPI bug that has existed for years.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#46

Post by N-Krause »

jeffbee wrote: post #29
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

> If you can’t hibernate (aka suspend to disk) you will never be able to get that power consumption low. This is cope. An Apple Silicon Macbook does not need to suspend to block devices to save energy (they only do this when the battery is empty). ChromeOS doesn't offer hibernate at all. The only reason that a Framework can't have good battery life in an operating state is that nobody is paying attention to the detai…

And what are those details? Sounds like you know specifics that I'd like to also know.

If you're claiming it is just an oversight, then please back it up.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#47

Post by deevus »

deevus wrote: post #27
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often have you needed to repair a MacBook? The enhanced repairability is basically insurance in case of a fault. Compared to a MacBook, or insurance for a MacBook, this insurance is overpriced. As for the environment, the power consumption + larger design with extra parts to make it repairable + how few people ever buy parts makes this a virtue signaling wash.

Funnily enough, I had to get my M1 Pro repaired on day 1 of receiving. It had a defect in the screen that caused a white horizontal line. I was livid!

> I am sure that the Apple Store just handed you another one to replace a DOA Macbook, though.

Actually no. Where I live there is no local Apple Store. I had to take it to an authorised repairer, and it was there for 1.5 weeks.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#48

Post by kijjure »

aurareturn wrote: post #24
deevus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's the repairable nature. Prior to the Framework 13 I had a bunch of Thinkpads until the enshittification by Lenovo in recent years.

I know Windows laptops are very finicky and unreliable. For example, loads of people complain that $3000 Razer laptops break after a few months. I guess I'm mostly talking about Apple overall. You're paying a lot more money for self-repairability. Frameworks are generally more expensive than Macs, sometimes 50% - 100% more expensive for a similar laptop. That's crazy. Macs are tanks. Not a single issue with my 4 year…

That can't possibly be true. I was recently considering my first ever Apple laptop but I would be paying a fortune to get RAM and storage anywhere close to offerings from any other vendor. And I've heard they're difficult or impossible to upgrade myself, so I can't even select a base model now and add more later.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#49

Post by dsego »

cardanome wrote: post #32
Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world I have to use Mac, Linux, and Windows desktops in my work. They all have their pros and cons, but I can’t say I’d ever argue that the Mac desktop experience is vastly inferior to the Linux desktop experience. Edit: Getting a lot of downvotes but most of the comments are about someone’s highly customized Linux desktop compared to completely vanilla Mac desktop. I…

Are you a gnome user? Linux Mint with Cinnamon is bliss. Or well anything else, you are absolutely spoiled for choice with Desktop Environments in Linux. There is the perfect one for everyone. At least if you use X11, wayland is still a turd. I found the Mac Desktop absolutely unusable for any development work as it comes out of the box. You need a metric ton of third-party extensions for simple stuff like proper alt…

> You are absolutely spoiled for choice with Desktop Environments in Linux.

That is both a pro and a con. For someone offering tech support or writing documentation it's a pretty big negative.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#50

Post by cardanome »

didacusc wrote: post #22
cardanome wrote: post #8

As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.

Saying that the macOS desktop is vastly inferior to Linux desktops is absolutely nuts. I've tried to get my relatives on Linux desktops so many times, just for it to go completely wrong a couple of weeks after and having to reinstall Windows. It's just not made for average (or below-average) users, so I don't see how it can be VASTLY inferior to something as easy and polished as macOS.

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