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Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

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Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#201

Post by ghaff »

reorder9695 wrote: post #196
wat10000 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QR codes feel like such a step backwards compared to NFC. The UX with current mobile OSes is not good. And if you require an app, or even worse an active data connection, well, I much prefer a quick double-click of my phone’s side button and then putting it near the payment terminal. And I’m really skeptical about security. NFC is vulnerable to relay attacks and QR codes can be secured by using one-time codes or roll…

I also actually _like_ having a physical card that I can use with NFC so that I'm not fecked if my phone dies/breaks or anything. Physical cards to me are a feature.

Yeah, it's not like I carry a stuffed wallet any longer, but I do have a small front pocket wallet with a handful of cards. It's actually easier for me to pay with a card (and increasingly mostly just tap it) than to pull my phone out and do whatever with it.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#202

Post by ameliaquining »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #78
ameliaquining wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a lot of cases there are regulatory or contractual barriers to doing that.

In the US, not since 2011 since the Dodd Frank act required payment card networks to allow merchants to offer cash and debit card discounts. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-el...

There's no longer a blanket ban, but there are still obstacles:

* Mastercard and Visa don't allow debit card surcharges, even if the transaction is run as "credit".

* American Express only allows surcharges if they also apply to all other forms of card payment. This includes debit cards, which interacts problematically with the previous rule; if you want to do a card surcharge while accepting all three card brands and remaining compliant with all their rules, you have to apply it only to Mastercard and Visa and not American Express, even though American Express is the most expensive.

* Several states still don't allow card surcharges, and others don't allow merchants to profit from surcharging (which makes it hard to advertise a uniform surcharge) or have regulations about how prices have to be listed if a surcharge is going to apply.

Rules like these don't make it impossible to do surcharges while remaining compliant, but they make it significantly harder than it'd otherwise be. I think this is the primary reason why most merchants still don't do them. (Well, that and that their competitors don't, but that could explain either equilibrium.)

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#203

Post by lan321 »

kevincox wrote: post #185
lan321 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't get a wallet app to work with GrapheneOS, so for me, QR codes are better, but they feel like they have different use cases. I like QR codes in mail invoices (very common in CH), I'd like NFC in a shop if I could use it.

This is a policy problem not a technology problem. If QR code solutions mandated the same policy they would have the same limitation.

That was my disclaimer, but I do prefer, regardless of what works on GrapheneOS, having a QR in my invoice letters. You could shine a light on the envelope and likely read it without opening, but having anyone be able to touch their phone to the envelope to see I owe Y$ to X sounds worse. It's also nice in email since there's less to copy over, and my PC doesn't have NFC.

I'd only prefer to have NFC over QR for in-store payment, and I transact way less money per month in-store.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#204

Post by voidUpdate »

netcrash wrote: post #70

The modified scrolling on the website is the worst!

Unless I'm on a touchscreen device, I never want my scrolling to have inertia. So just leave it on the default behaviour. I don't understand why you would put in the effort to make the scrolling feel worse

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#205

Post by 2Gkashmiri »

wat10000 wrote: post #168
olliem36 wrote: post #142

Cofounder of Lopay here - we have the same mission: offer free payments to businesses, but we're working with existing networks to do this. QR code payments are particularly hard in countries like US and UK as you're trying to change consumer behaviour. I tried doing this in 2014 and again in 2019 - both failed to gain traction (aside from during COVID). In the UK it's possible to accept card payments for 0% via Lopa…

QR codes feel like such a step backwards compared to NFC. The UX with current mobile OSes is not good. And if you require an app, or even worse an active data connection, well, I much prefer a quick double-click of my phone’s side button and then putting it near the payment terminal. And I’m really skeptical about security. NFC is vulnerable to relay attacks and QR codes can be secured by using one-time codes or roll…

You haven't experienced UPI. Its a breeze. Everything works with everything else.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#206

Post by rprend »

blitzar wrote: post #67

> cheaper payments ... Zenobia Pay charges 1%. 5x higher than they would be allowed to charge in the EU. > accept pay-by-bank I am reminded of tech bros inventing the bus in 2025

Where do you get 5X? European interchange is regulated to .3-.4%, the network fees are the same as the US (.1-.2%) and then the payment service provider takes their fee. Online card processing in the EU costs around 1%.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#207

Post by _1tem »

Esophagus4 wrote: post #195
_1tem wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No conspiracy? Is that why the US government also tries to prevent other countries like Brazil from internationalizing their payment systems like Pix? Apple/Google/Amazon/Microsoft could save billions on credit card processing fees by cutting out Visa/Mastercard -- but instead are pressured to accept "special rates" and warned to stay out of the business.

Show me where they’re “warned to stay out of the business” Surely you must be thinking of mob movies, not the payments space.

There's evidence that Visa and Mastercard tried to prevent Apple from building their own network, including DOJ antitrust complaints in 2024 and a more recent suit in July 2025. The fact that antitrust allegations failed to make it in court despite it being such an obvious antitrust case against the duopoly very much suggests that there is something more going on behind the scenes. This seems like such an easy antitrust case to win, especially when it was used successfully in the Visa vs. Plaid case (another case where a potential competitor was prevented from building an alternative to Visa/Mastercard) - Plaid dropped their plans to build a network after their acquisition was cancelled.

There's no way that I can take such strange goings-ons at face value - Apple only gains by disintermediating Visa and they clearly tried at some point, but something stopped them. What stopped them? Too hard for Apple? They already built the infrastructure for it with Apple Pay and Apple Cash. What stopped them from going all the way? I'm convinced something more powerful stopped them.

See here: https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/apple-visa-maste...

There is plenty evidence of shadowy forces shutting down payment systems, just look at Marc Andreessen's public statements about crypto founders he invested in getting debanked.

https://medium.com/@nic__carter/marc-andreessen-and-the-cfpb...

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#208

Post by rprend »

Tor3 wrote: post #14
sampullman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's ultimately in the price of goods, then it doesn't cost the consumer nothing, no matter how you spin it. It's just cleverly hidden. I think it's close to impossible to "fix" Visa without government intervention (e.g. limit fees to a fraction of a percent), but I'm still grateful to anyone who tries.

The incentive for merchants to accept cards for payment is that it'll increase number of sales. And it does. In principle this should even out over all sales.. but cards do make it easier for consumers do purchase stuff, and I'm absolutely sure that I personally spend money way easier with a card than without (not that I spend more than I make, mind). The total number of sales go up. I haven't used cash in my home co…

> The incentive for merchants to accept cards for payment is that it'll increase number of sales this is something that ive thought about a lot, because while it is strictly true in the short run it may not be in the long run. For example, i don't have any debt, but i use a credit card for everything. Why? It's become my default to use it.

I wonder if the same thing will happen with BNPL (Klarna, Afterpay). These are higher fee than credit cards (5-7%) because they bring in new customers. But, like with credit cards, savvy customers are starting to see BNPL as interest free loans (aka free money on the float, even better than credit card rewards), and it's possible that they become the new consumer results. Merchants are left holding the bag of paying 6% processing fees for everyone, even people who can afford it.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#209

Post by wat10000 »

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #205
wat10000 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QR codes feel like such a step backwards compared to NFC. The UX with current mobile OSes is not good. And if you require an app, or even worse an active data connection, well, I much prefer a quick double-click of my phone’s side button and then putting it near the payment terminal. And I’m really skeptical about security. NFC is vulnerable to relay attacks and QR codes can be secured by using one-time codes or roll…

You haven't experienced UPI. Its a breeze. Everything works with everything else.

How does it solve these issues?

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#210

Post by rprend »

OsrsNeedsf2P wrote: post #42

This is what product market fit looks like; everyone is trashing various pieces of Zenobia, but it's still getting upvoted because we all want the solution.

it's a super dangerous tarpit, because it has what id call theoretical product market fit: when you describe it to people, they're super excited by it. Everybody says that they want it and they encourage you along the way. But when it comes down to it, nobody wants the solution
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