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Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#191

Post by sneak »

HHad3 wrote: post #35

I would welcome if this global legislative push would end up in a more open app ecosystem for iOS overall. BrowserEngineKit is a thin wrapper over XPC and iOS' extension system. The system would be so much better to develop for if XPC was an open API, and JIT for isolated sub-processes was permitted without Apple's blessing. * Messengers could have separate sub-processes for preprocessing untrusted inputs -- iMessage…

This also shifts a tremendous amount of the burden for preventing system-level malware onto the app sandbox, which today is only one component of a multi-layered defense-in-depth system of notarization, entitlements, app review, etc.

To be clear I support letting people run whatever apps they want, but let’s not pretend that this won’t make the median iPhone more prone to have a malware infection (like Android). There are reasons other than anticompetitive greed that Apple does things this way (although I am sure greed is the primary motivator).

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#192

Post by cosmic_cheese »

dcow wrote: post #103
troupo wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. That's the downside of it. I am personally quite torn on the issue. On the one hand Apple must be made to open up iOS more. On the other hand it just leads to Chrome monopoly.

Then attack Chrome. There isn’t a moral conundrum here.

Yes exactly. As much as Apple needs to open iOS, Google needs to be forced to stop pushing Chrome through every avenue it can. No more cross-promotion, no more bundling Chrome into random Windows program installers, no more use of APIs that favor Blink browsers, etc. Google has sucked all the air out of the web engine room through these things.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#193

Post by mathiaspoint »

sneak wrote: post #191
HHad3 wrote: post #35

I would welcome if this global legislative push would end up in a more open app ecosystem for iOS overall. BrowserEngineKit is a thin wrapper over XPC and iOS' extension system. The system would be so much better to develop for if XPC was an open API, and JIT for isolated sub-processes was permitted without Apple's blessing. * Messengers could have separate sub-processes for preprocessing untrusted inputs -- iMessage…

This also shifts a tremendous amount of the burden for preventing system-level malware onto the app sandbox, which today is only one component of a multi-layered defense-in-depth system of notarization, entitlements, app review, etc. To be clear I support letting people run whatever apps they want, but let’s not pretend that this won’t make the median iPhone more prone to have a malware infection (like Android). Ther…

Apple doesn't instrument apps when they review them. That burden is already there, they've just convinced you otherwise.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#194

Post by close04 »

nuker wrote: post #147
close04 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, and then your iOS should just report the list of permissions the app demanded, maybe even compare to the AppStore version, and then let people make their choice. It doesn't have to be a "one click" easy way to make mistakes. Most users won't bother to go through 3 extra steps to install the "alternative" app if they aren't missing anything in the regular one. The OS should anyway sandbox everything, and…

> and then let people make their choice. Some apps are de-facto unavoidable, like Facebook, Whatsapp and X.

They absolutely are not. No more than alcohol or tobacco addiction are de-facto unavoidable. And the people who are absolutely addicted to those platforms will always have the option of the web page no matter what you do to the app.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#195

Post by Arainach »

skeezyboy wrote: post #189
Arainach wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>freedom to use your phone however you want would necessarily compromise security and privacy for everyone. For a large enough definition of "everyone", it would. "Everyone" has a Meta app installed. We've seen them pull evil tricks over and over to suck up data 24/7 - most recently running a local server on Android that their websites could talk to to bypass anonymization - and the moment a crack appears in the wall…

i take it you dont use desktops or laptops then?

I don't see the relevance of this question. Neither what I do nor whether I own a desktop/laptop impact the overwhelming trends of how society interacts with technology.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#196

Post by frankvdwaal »

nuker wrote: post #100
yupyupyups wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and as we all know that'll be the end of the world. I'll enjoy seeing all the accounts on MacRumors clawing their eyes out when that happens. It would be naive to think that Apple isn't funding sites and narratives on the internet to serve their economic interests. One of the most outlandish one being that freedom to use your phone however you want would necessarily compromise security and privacy for everyone. It's…

> ... freedom to use your phone however you want I want to use my phone locked down hard and apps reviewed by Apple. I sleep better with things as they are. I suspect 99% of normal users are in the same boat.

What you want is not relevant, because you have no choice.

Apple depriving you of that choice may not inconvenience you, but you are still being deprived of that freedom in the first place. I suspect 100% of iPhone users are in the same boat.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#197

Post by bad_haircut72 »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #185
namibj wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine banning sale and import, wonder how long Apple stores have to be closed for Apple to give in....

Wouldn't people in Japan riot because they can't buy iPhones and be part of the tribe? There are few things in life people like more than their iPhones.

Nobody is gonna riot over an iphone lmao

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#198

Post by Angostura »

yupyupyups wrote: post #48
HHad3 wrote: post #35

I would welcome if this global legislative push would end up in a more open app ecosystem for iOS overall. BrowserEngineKit is a thin wrapper over XPC and iOS' extension system. The system would be so much better to develop for if XPC was an open API, and JIT for isolated sub-processes was permitted without Apple's blessing. * Messengers could have separate sub-processes for preprocessing untrusted inputs -- iMessage…

>and as we all know that'll be the end of the world. I'll enjoy seeing all the accounts on MacRumors clawing their eyes out when that happens. It would be naive to think that Apple isn't funding sites and narratives on the internet to serve their economic interests. One of the most outlandish one being that freedom to use your phone however you want would necessarily compromise security and privacy for everyone. It's…

You know what I got my parents an iPhone? To avoid having to worry about stuff.

Now I have to worry about the inevitable phone call from ‘Apple Technical Support

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#199

Post by fkyoureadthedoc »

overfeed wrote: post #144
radiofreeeuropa wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome did that three ways: 1) performing better and crashing less than mainstream alternatives (just IE and Firefox, then) on non-Mac platforms (so, most desktop computers) for a good long while; 2) aggressive advertising to trick people who don't actually give a shit what browser they're running (or even know) into downloading it because "google said it would make my gmail work better" or "I dunno, google just told…

I forgot how often individual webpages could take down your entire browser! On Chrome, it'd just crash the perpetrator tab. Chrome was also fast - really, really fast. Even if one was "tricked" into using it, you wouldn't want to go back to using other browsers - they put in the work. > One of three major factors involved actually being good, and I'd bet the other two factors overwhelm that one Counterpoint: Microsof…

Edge (and basically every other browser besides Safari and Firefox) is a chromium fork though, so even though it only has like a 5% market share, it's still bumping up the engine's overall market share.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#200

Post by atommclain »

meibo wrote: post #82
ajaimk wrote: post #63

Is this a good thing? Doesn't this just expand the marketshare of Chromium?

Safari is not a good browser, by design, because it's in Apple's interest to cripple the Web as a platform. If they want their browser to be actually competitive instead of forcing people to use it, they should make a good browser. That is markets working as they are supposed to.

It's funny, I prefer to use Safari on iOS instead of native apps because I have more control over shaping my experience (through user scripts and custom css) and Apple's focus on user privacy which may be all lip service, but at least it's part of their talking points; something I don't see with Chrome.

I'm sure Safari sucks to support for web developers and is missing a lot of cool apis, but I'm willing to take those tradeoffs for the increased privacy I get as a result.

That being said, I do think Apple should allow third party browser engines.

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