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AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

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Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#71

Post by dns_snek »

crazygringo wrote: post #39
pyrale wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. As a subsidiary company, does Amazon retain operational control over that branch? If so, it's subject to the CLOUD act, and therefore, not compatible with EU rules. > Amazon remains the owner and controls the technology, yes. So, basically, the answer is that the EU subsidiary is not independent.…

> If so, it's subject to the CLOUD act, and therefore, not compatible with EU rules. I'm assuming the CLOUD act is the entire reason why they're explicitly going with European-only staff. That way Amazon can honestly say it has no operational control to violate EU law because there's no American employee they can command. Operational control isn't all-or-nothing. European employees will do whatever Amazon tells them…

> That way Amazon can honestly say it has no operational control to violate EU law because there's no American employee they can command.

> Amazon is intentionally setting it up in a way that it won't be able to do anything about that.

They can say whatever they want but when the NSA knocks on the door, they'll covertly implant a backdoor anywhere they ask and ship the update to the "sovereign" EU cloud. This is nothing but a ruse.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#72

Post by benterix »

crazygringo wrote: post #26
dabedee wrote: post #9

AWS claims their cloud is "sovereign" and "independent" while remaining owned by a US corp subject to US law (including the CLOUD Act). That's not how sovereignty works. EU citizen operators don't change the fact that the underlying technology, patents, and corporate control remain American. Zero details on pricing, available services, or how they'll handle conflicts between US law and their "sovereignty" promises. F…

> That's not how sovereignty works. Actually, it is. It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. And being staffed by Europeans means they are immune to any US legal threats. I.e. the US can't compel a European employee to reveal data under a subpoena the way it could compel American citizens. Amazon remains the owner and controls the techno…

> their reputation will be forever ruined and they'll lose all corporate and government business forever

Unfortunately this is not how it works. A cynic in me would say just the opposite, looking how Crowdstrike is doing now after causing one of the biggest technological disasters of the decade by their incompetence.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#73

Post by afo3 »

tzs wrote: post #60

It's weird how people here react to the CLOUD Act. The CLOUD Act contains two provisions. One provision relates to MLATs (mutual legal assistance treaties). An MLAT is an agreement between countries to cooperate on gathering and exchanging information to enforce laws. For example an MLAT might provide a way for police from one country to go to another country to interrogate a suspect who resides in that other country…

Given that AWS US can still easily 'control' any data it wants to get from its Euro subsidiary (just by pushing a new code version that has a small change to make that data accessible), I don't understand how AWS US would avoid being compelled to turn over the data in a high profile case. I.e. they could always implement a backdoor or make a targeted modification to the AWS code base that would allow them access if they wanted. Unless AWS EU does a full code review on every line of code being changed in the underlying AWS codebase, they'd never be able to stop it.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#74

Post by dns_snek »

crazygringo wrote: post #26
dabedee wrote: post #9

AWS claims their cloud is "sovereign" and "independent" while remaining owned by a US corp subject to US law (including the CLOUD Act). That's not how sovereignty works. EU citizen operators don't change the fact that the underlying technology, patents, and corporate control remain American. Zero details on pricing, available services, or how they'll handle conflicts between US law and their "sovereignty" promises. F…

> That's not how sovereignty works. Actually, it is. It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. And being staffed by Europeans means they are immune to any US legal threats. I.e. the US can't compel a European employee to reveal data under a subpoena the way it could compel American citizens. Amazon remains the owner and controls the techno…

> Sure Amazon or any cloud provider could build a back door, but that will eventually be discovered whether by hacker or whistleblower and their reputation will be forever ruined and they'll lose all corporate and government business forever. It's not in Amazon's corporate self-interest to allow a back door like that.

In which alternate reality is that? This already happened with Snowden's leaks when we learned about Microsoft's, Apple's, and Google's participation in the PRISM program and their market dominance has only grown since then. There were no consequences, the market didn't care, the shareholders didn't care, their customers largely didn't care, and they didn't lose any sleep over it.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#75

Post by pyrale »

crazygringo wrote: post #66
pyrale wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Operational control isn't all-or-nothing. When the US government has no issue asking a company to hand over its tls keys, it really is.

If the company has no keys to hand over, because they gave them to the Europeans, then obviously that's quite a different situation. The US can ask. That doesn't mean it gets what it wants. The government loses in court all the time.

Have you heard of many national security letters successfully challenged in court?

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#76

Post by lazide »

dastbe wrote: post #61
lazide wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a rather laughable actual protection isn’t it? People do stuff because their bosses tell them too.

At this point, you might as well use no cloud provider because at some point someone may be able to be leveraged? Whether that's by your country, another country, or some other nefarious entity.

That is where this is clearly going, yes. Which is why AWS is making this move, to try to head it off.

For those with nothing they particularly care about, it will be enough. For those with something to lose - currently small, but increasing, see the 80’s and the French Industrial espionage scandal - they’ll move back to on-prem if they haven’t already.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#77

Post by Balinares »

crazygringo wrote: post #39
pyrale wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. As a subsidiary company, does Amazon retain operational control over that branch? If so, it's subject to the CLOUD act, and therefore, not compatible with EU rules. > Amazon remains the owner and controls the technology, yes. So, basically, the answer is that the EU subsidiary is not independent.…

> If so, it's subject to the CLOUD act, and therefore, not compatible with EU rules. I'm assuming the CLOUD act is the entire reason why they're explicitly going with European-only staff. That way Amazon can honestly say it has no operational control to violate EU law because there's no American employee they can command. Operational control isn't all-or-nothing. European employees will do whatever Amazon tells them…

Not quite. If it works like the Thalès / Google S3NS thing, then Amazon employees have no access at all to the EU infra, and any software updates Amazon needs to make can only be delivered to a quarantine environment from which then can only be passed on to prod by EU, non-Amazon employees, after validation.

That's in line with the requirements laid down by the ANSSI (French govt security agency), and those are tight. Believe it or not, they are not stupid.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#78

Post by Permik »

pyrale wrote: post #75
crazygringo wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company has no keys to hand over, because they gave them to the Europeans, then obviously that's quite a different situation. The US can ask. That doesn't mean it gets what it wants. The government loses in court all the time.

Have you heard of many national security letters successfully challenged in court?

If it's not hand delivered or certified mail, into the trash it goes! :D

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#79

Post by pyrale »

Balinares wrote: post #77
crazygringo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If so, it's subject to the CLOUD act, and therefore, not compatible with EU rules. I'm assuming the CLOUD act is the entire reason why they're explicitly going with European-only staff. That way Amazon can honestly say it has no operational control to violate EU law because there's no American employee they can command. Operational control isn't all-or-nothing. European employees will do whatever Amazon tells them…

Not quite. If it works like the Thalès / Google S3NS thing, then Amazon employees have no access at all to the EU infra, and any software updates Amazon needs to make can only be delivered to a quarantine environment from which then can only be passed on to prod by EU, non-Amazon employees, after validation. That's in line with the requirements laid down by the ANSSI (French govt security agency), and those are tight…

A joint venture would work, indeed. There is still the possibility of a supply-chain attack, but it's still better than a subsidiary operating the system or hiring european employees.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#80

Post by blibble »

skissane wrote: post #65
blibble wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> replaces them with EU managers why would they do that? they'd put a US manager there temporarily

That would be illegal. They are offering this service to EU governments (and government contractors) under contractual terms which promise EU management. Replacing the EU management with a US manager would at a minimum be a breach of contract - and since some of these contracts are for sensitive / national security use cases, possibly much more serious legal consequences than just garden variety breach of contract

> Replacing the EU management with a US manager would at a minimum be a breach of contract - and since some of these contracts are for sensitive / national security use cases, possibly much more serious legal consequences than just garden variety breach of contract

and the EU has no leverage to do anything about it

if they did they wouldn't have selected AWS "Sovereign" cloud in the first place

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